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strike- union busting update


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connedbyselmer
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: strike- union busting update Reply with quote

GEE only 144 votes challenged by conn-selmer. Wonder which way the majority of those votes would go? Hope all you supporters of Steinway , Conn-Selmer products are happy how things are looking for you.
Continue to support Evil corporate America.






Conn-Selmer vote to decertify union hits snag
Ballots challenged over job status of some who voted.

ED RONCO
Tribune Staff Writer

ELKHART -- It's going to take a little while to find out whether a vote held Wednesday will bring an end to an ongoing strike here.

Members of United Auto Workers Local 364 have been on strike outside Conn-Selmer's Vincent Bach musical instrument factory at 500 Industrial Parkway since April 1, 2006.

Wednesday, they and workers inside the plant voted on whether to decertify the union.


If the union is decertified it will cease to represent workers at the plant. The strike, now in its 20th month, will be over.

If workers and union members vote to retain union representation, the strike goes on. Proponents of decertification will have to wait another year to try again.

If only it were that simple.

So what's the problem?

In Wednesday's vote, 63 people chose to retain union representation and 105 people voted to decertify the union.

But 144 other ballots were challenged. UAW officials challenged four ballots, they said. The company challenged the remainder, the union said.

The challenged ballots came because of questions over whether the voting union members have been permanently replaced. Workers who have been permanently replaced cannot vote.

The disputed ballots were sealed up after Wednesday's count at the Quality Inn & Suites on Indiana 19. They will be sent to the National Labor Relations Board office in Indianapolis where a hearing will determine the outcome in the next six to 10 weeks.

It's one more wait for those trying to end union representation at the plant. The petition to decertify UAW Local 364 was filed on April 27.

It was held up by the union, which sought to delay decertification by filing an unfair labor practices charge with the National Labor Relations Board. That charge was dismissed by the Indianapolis office and an appeal upheld that decision.

A surprise and a wait

Some of the union members who showed up to vote Wednesday said they were surprised to find out they were listed as permanently replaced.

One of them was Steve Cassidy, a worker and union member for 13 years before he went on strike, whose ballot was challenged.

Cassidy said he had called the company a while back to get proof that he was permanently replaced, so he could file for unemployment assistance with the government.

"They said, 'Oh, you haven't been replaced,'" Cassidy said Wednesday. "Now, all of a sudden, I've been replaced."

Julie Theriault, a spokeswoman for Conn-Selmer parent company Steinway Musical, said the company couldn't comment on how permanent replacement status was determined.

Bob Speed, senior vice president of operations at Conn-Selmer, said 312 of the 315 people eligible to vote ended up casting ballots Wednesday, and that the company was pleased with the turnout.

"We look forward to the conclusion of the whole thing," he said.

For now, all anyone can do is wait for the federal government to rule on the disputed ballots.

"Hopefully things will go in our favor," said Rita Taylor-Mallard, recording secretary of Local 364. "I wouldn't do anything differently."
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: strike- union busting update Reply with quote

connedbyselmer wrote:
GEE only 144 votes challenged by conn-selmer. Wonder which way the majority of those votes would go? Hope all you supporters of Steinway , Conn-Selmer products are happy how things are looking for you.
Continue to support Evil corporate America.

You silver tongued devil you.

Seriously I hope that you have found work elsewhere and are doing well in your new job.
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Mikeytrpt
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a strike going on?

Where?


Ohhhh............you must mean the screenwriters guilde in Hollyweird. My bad.......


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lmf
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Conned,

You said:

"Hope all you supporters of Steinway , Conn-Selmer products are happy how things are looking for you."

There are folks who stand by the brand names, but do not appreciate the management of Steinway, Conn-Selmer. I suspect "folks in the know" are looking elsewhere for instruments whenever and wherever they can.

With the declining dollar in the USA, foreign horns that compete with Steinway-Conn Selmer will be more expensive.

Quality will determine if the consumer stays loyal. Some say it is worse now, while others say it is not affected. No one wants to pay more for less, but most feel the "union shop" kept quality standards higher.

Best wishes!

Lloyd
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Mikeytrpt
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out the thread Paul Randall of the North Carolina Symphony started in the horns forum. He had a bad experience with the "post-strike" Bach Chicago C trumpet. Is that lack of QC the result of a non-union shop? I remember quite well how inconsistent Bach horns were before the strike. So........Can any conclusion be drawn from this?
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lmf
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikeytrpt wrote:
Check out the thread Paul Randall of the North Carolina Symphony started in the horns forum. He had a bad experience with the "post-strike" Bach Chicago C trumpet. Is that lack of QC the result of a non-union shop? I remember quite well how inconsistent Bach horns were before the strike. So........Can any conclusion be drawn from this?


It will be interesting to see data that shows QC problems before, during and after the strike to draw accurate conclusions.

Do you think we will ever know? I've heard of QC complaints before the strike and during, too. Makes us wonder, dosen't it?

Best wishes,

Lloyd
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmf wrote:
Quality will determine if the consumer stays loyal. Some say it is worse now, while others say it is not affected.

Three different music store owners in my area, all trumpet players, say the current quality is considerable higher than the pre-strike Bachs. I made it a point to discuss this when I was in their stores for other reasons.

One other store doesn't carry Bachs in support of the strike.
lmf wrote:
No one wants to pay more for less, but most feel the "union shop" kept quality standards higher.

Best wishes!

Lloyd

It is a common misnomer that unions equal quality. Unions do not guarantee quality (good or bad), they protect the worker from unfair labor practices.

I would contend that if "most" feel the union shop kept quality standards higher, they had significantly different union experiences than I have had or that my wife currently has. (she works for the DMV. It is completely unionized. "Most" would say the DMV has terrible service and accuracy.)
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connedbyselmer
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: strike- union busting update Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
connedbyselmer wrote:
GEE only 144 votes challenged by conn-selmer. Wonder which way the majority of those votes would go? Hope all you supporters of Steinway , Conn-Selmer products are happy how things are looking for you.
Continue to support Evil corporate America.

You silver tongued devil you.

Seriously I hope that you have found work elsewhere and are doing well in your new job.


Hey little rusty, great to hear your responce. Since I have worked for Bach for over 40 years I feel it is a little to late for me to work elsewhere , so I am going on to volunteer my time and energy to help people like Lou Dobbs expose evil corporate America ,and the tactics they are using to destroy the middle class, in the name of corporate greed
Steinway, Conn-selmer should be thankfully, that I ,the faithful employee that I have been for over 40 years ,will continue to work for this company in some capacity the remainder of my time on earth as allotted by my creator, weather I get a salary or not.
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lmf
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Rusty.

You said,

"It is a common misnomer that unions equal quality. Unions do not guarantee quality (good or bad), they protect the worker from unfair labor practices."

In actuality, you may be right. However, when talking with union workers over the years, the issue of the unions protecting "quality" always comes up. That is why the unions claim that "union" workers are better trained and more qualified than "non-union" workers. If one receives a poor product that can't be exchanged or corrected at the company's expense, the person may not believe the union's claim of quality.

By the way, if a music store continues to sell Bach, there would be no value to sales to say they are worse than pre-strike days. They would want to claim they are as good or better than pre-strike days.

By the same token, if people like Conned-By-Selmer are staying with the company to finish their careers in the "after strike" years, they would want a quality product to protect the jobs that are left. Things will not be the same, but after 40 years, where else can a person go?

Best wshes,

Lloyd
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed if I understand correctly there was a Bach quality issue that was discussed in conjunction with the strike. I believe the point was that the quality inspector was being made to let poor quality horns out the door to increase production.

As to the store owners, two of the three are acquaintances who I discuss many things with. They both expressed that they were concerned if the new quality would continue over the longer term. They both felt it would not, but hoped it would end up better than the prestrike.

Be that as it may, based on my wife's experience with the union, my experience with the union and discussions I have had with professionals in the plumbing and tiling unions I stand by my statement about unions not guaranteeing quality. YMMV.


Let me ask this, do you think in the months leading up to the strike that the union thought about customer returns?
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lmf
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rusty,

You said:

"Be that as it may, based on my wife's experience with the union, my experience with the union and discussions I have had with professionals in the plumbing and tiling unions I stand by my statement about unions not guaranteeing quality. YMMV.

Let me ask this, do you think in the months leading up to the strike that the union thought about customer returns,"

To be fair here, most unions that I have known seem to imply that union workers are trained and do a better job than non-workers. This would say to me that products made by unions are better. I realize other labor issues are involved, but quality is usually an argument for union shops. There may be other motives as you and your dear wife know about.

The refund issue is probably a mute (no pun intended) issue as those days are long past. It is what the company will be providing in workmanship after the strike? If prices increase and quality goes down, the consumer will go elsewhere.

Best wishes,

Lloyd
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Mikeytrpt
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the consumer has a lot of top-line horns to choose from these days, in addition to finding old Bach Strads in good to great shape (I fear those older horns will continue to increase in price. Grab them while you can). I am still kicking myself for selling a great ML 37, S/N 61xxx a year ago....I wish I had it back to match my current ML 72LT, 67xxx.

*sigh*

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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmf wrote:
To be fair here, most unions that I have known seem to imply that union workers are trained and do a better job than non-workers.

Lloyd,

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, especially the imply part.

I think I have hijacked this thread enough.
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lmf
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
lmf wrote:
To be fair here, most unions that I have known seem to imply that union workers are trained and do a better job than non-workers.

Lloyd,

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, especially the imply part.

I think I have hijacked this thread enough.


By the way, Rusty, I've never been a union member, so I don't pretend to understand the inner workings of unions. I assume that they have members with different grades of competency as with any other craft. One cannot guarantee that each stage necessary to create the horn you purchase was done by the most compentent person. I would also believe that marginal workers who are members of the union are protected. There are non-union workers who are good at their craft and conscientious. They enjoy the work they are doing. I don't believe they should be "looked down upon" for wanting to work to better their lives.

Best wishes,

Lloyd
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess my point is that the unions have the same mix of people we have in real life. So there will be people who are excellent in their jobs and there will be those who are terrible, just as in non-union jobs.

There may indeed be some unions that have entrance exams and regular checkups to ensure the union members are providing excellent work, but I have never heard of one that does both.

The quality of the work is up to the individual worker and the company, not the union.

In my union job the union provided contract negotiation, a place to appeal unfair labor practices and representation when action was taken against the worker. In fact every time the company asked for metrics to judge job performance, the union pushed against it. (sometimes for very good reason)

It is very important that the unions convince the public that there is a benefit for the public otherwise no one would support the strikes and the unions would lose some of their negotiating strength.

It is very much like your point about stores selling Bach instruments having a vested interest in claiming quality is up.

Please don't get me wrong, I think unions have a very valid place in our country, I just disagree with the notion that unions guarantee quality.

(and I believe that the pay for upper management in this county is totally out of whack)
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tom turner
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach enjoyed being on top for a long, long time. Like Ford and a lot of other union-bloated companies though, they find themselves trapped in a funk of high wages and little, if any, innovation.

Heck, at least Ford didn't have to come out with a "new" model that was a remake of a 1956 Mt. Vernon. Then again . . . maybe they did when they brought out the retro Mustang.

Time is now passing by some of America's fading companies once known for innovation and value. I imagine that inflated union wages account for the killing of a lot of creativity and innovation when all the money is spent on making a product at a certain location where the labor rates are much higher than your competitors.

Recently a Bach-only trumpet playing associate of mine who is in his late 50's abandoned Bach for the Kanstul 1500. It was either a new Bach to replace his early Elkhart, or something else. He chose the Kanstul.

I doubt Kanstul is a union shop, thus they can afford to put the quality into the horn rather than cut lots of corners in order to make union payrolls and STILL make a profit.

The beat goes on . . .

T.
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Mikeytrpt
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So in Bach's case, having a union shop did not help their QC, nor does having a non-union shop help their QC.

We should take the blame away from the union and place it squarely in the lap of the Fat Cats running the company. (If they care anymore about making great horns).
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westview1900
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at what CEO's in this country make. If you think wages are overinflated, that is a good place to start cutting. I think it's great when an owner makes a lot of money, but when the steward (CEO) of a company whose job it is to maximize the profits for shareholders takes so much money out of the company in salary and benefits, something is wrong. Here is what Warren Buffet has to say about this:
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/corpgov/2007/03/12/warren-buffett-on-ceo-pay/
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trumpetwizard
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The GM of the music world.
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bassmannate
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can honestly say that I have seen a huge decline in quality coming from Bach. (As well as many of the other brands that are owned by Conn-Selmer.

I work at a dealer that sells a number of different brands including Conn-Selmer.

A little less than a year ago, we received a special order Bach C trumpet (can't remember the model number now) and we pulled it out of the case. It had a HUGE dent in the crook like it had been dropped. There's no way that it happened in shipment in the case.

Now how on earth did that get out of the factory that way?
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