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I'll Never Use Paypal Again


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Glissando
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PayPal is in business to make money, period.

I received a "mint" horn that actually looked like someone had stepped on it. The seller wouldn't respond to attempts to contact him/her/it.

I called PayPal and was encouraged by several of their customer service agents to file a dispute. A number of them said things like, "You have good reason to file a claim. I'd GO for it." These agents went on and on about how PayPal is a large organization with resources all over, they use collection agencies if that becomes necessary, they take things like this very seriously, I am important to them, etc., etc.

So, I filed a dispute and the seller countered with an offer to refund my money minus shipping. PayPal's website said if I accepted this, then the matter would be considered closed and PayPal would not get involved. On the other hand, if I didn't accept the seller's offer, then PayPal's investigative team would review my dispute and render a decision. I didn't accept, PayPay reviewed the whole transaction, and PayPal's team decided in my favor. I "WON."

But what does that really mean? Essentially NOTHING. Please read on.

I sent the horn back and the seller never returned a cent. PayPal then said they couldn't do anything further, sorry. I asked PayPal whether they had pursued any of those procedures their tough-talking agents had told me about earlier, and all they would reply with was maddening boilerplate messages saying they had done all they would do.

So, it turns out that a seller can simply decide not to abide by PayPal's decision!!!

Please note that if I had accepted the seller's counteroffer (of the purchase price but no shipping refund), PayPal would have simply washed its hands just that much earlier -- and the seller would likely have stiffed me just the same. WITH NO RECOURSE THROUGH PAYPAL either way.
So, beware with PayPal. Even if you "win," you may lose.
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rolling360
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: pay Reply with quote

KingSilverSonic wrote:

I always payed my Pal Pal purchases using American Express. Then I sat up a Pay Pal account with my bank. After a few more purchases it came to my attention that they were automatically withdrawing payments out of my bank account. I contacted them and told them I did not want them to do this, and wanted to pay through Am Ex - to no avail. Then I got a refund on one of my purchases and I am still trying to transfer that money back to my bank account. I am not overly pleased with them.
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I also like to use Richards Amex and his PayPal account. Never had any problems yet!!!!! Thanks Buddy!
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Dave Mickley
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stopped using paypal several years ago after my charge card was comprimized twice from europe. Visa caught it both times so I was not out anything but had to change my account both times. since I have stopped using paypal my card has not been hit. so much for their security. Dave
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richardwy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the heads up!
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Randall Nelson
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..as several have mentioned when buying anything substantial with Paypal it's a good idea to always use a credit card. .. it's simply good business for the credit card company to keep me happy....aside from consumer protection laws that they operate under. Use a credit card that you have either a strong relationship with or use one that you dedicate to internet buying for security.

I also make a point of making live phone contact with sellers in all cases where there is say more than $100 at stake ...and won't bid if the person/item sounds the least questionable. A little use of[url] www.411.com[/url] is all it usually takes to find someone. No find=no bid...end of story.

I've been stiffed once on a paypal buy...only got $15.76 back out of $20 spent...and that was with a European seller and before I started doing things this way.

As they say in the used car business.."Your mileage may vary"....
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JetJaguar
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Joined: 20 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glissando wrote:
PayPal is in business to make money, period.

I received a "mint" horn that actually looked like someone had stepped on it. The seller wouldn't respond to attempts to contact him/her/it.

I called PayPal and was encouraged by several of their customer service agents to file a dispute. A number of them said things like, "You have good reason to file a claim. I'd GO for it." These agents went on and on about how PayPal is a large organization with resources all over, they use collection agencies if that becomes necessary, they take things like this very seriously, I am important to them, etc., etc.

So, I filed a dispute and the seller countered with an offer to refund my money minus shipping. PayPal's website said if I accepted this, then the matter would be considered closed and PayPal would not get involved. On the other hand, if I didn't accept the seller's offer, then PayPal's investigative team would review my dispute and render a decision. I didn't accept, PayPay reviewed the whole transaction, and PayPal's team decided in my favor. I "WON."

But what does that really mean? Essentially NOTHING. Please read on.

I sent the horn back and the seller never returned a cent. PayPal then said they couldn't do anything further, sorry. I asked PayPal whether they had pursued any of those procedures their tough-talking agents had told me about earlier, and all they would reply with was maddening boilerplate messages saying they had done all they would do.

So, it turns out that a seller can simply decide not to abide by PayPal's decision!!!

Please note that if I had accepted the seller's counteroffer (of the purchase price but no shipping refund), PayPal would have simply washed its hands just that much earlier -- and the seller would likely have stiffed me just the same. WITH NO RECOURSE THROUGH PAYPAL either way.
So, beware with PayPal. Even if you "win," you may lose.


Was Paypal's buyer protection in effect? Certain conditions need to be met for that. Just curious if it was the Buyer Protection that actually failed you, or if it was not applicable in this case.
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rooster7
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I closed my Paypal, and Ebay accounts several months ago after I was scammed. I had both since 1999, and made about 300 transactions, both selling and buying.
In May 2007, I was getting ready to move and because of a bad back, I tried to liquidate as much of my "worldly" possessions as I could. I put 3 trumpets ,and a camera on Ebay. The camera sold the first day. The guy paid with Paypal. Had had a verified bank account, but a unconfirmed mailing address. I verified with the buyer his address, and sent the package.
The next day, the guy emailed me and told me he received the item in perfect condition. He left positive feedback. The day after that, I get a email from Paypal wanting the $ back for the Ebay item I sold. I got on the phone to Paypal and said, "Say what?!"
As it turns out, the guy closed his bank account, and never updated it with Paypal. Paypal told me I had to contact the guy to get my money, since he didn't have a confirmed mailing address.
So, I contacted the guy, and he promised to pay me with a money order. After two weeks of going round and round with the guy, it was obvious he wasn't going to pay me. I sent him several "payment due" notices through Paypal, but he kept going into my account and deleting them. I asked him why he did that, and he told me "because I'm sending you a money order". I have no idea how he got into my Paypal account.
To add salt to the wound, Ebay wanted $35 for their fees. I callled Ebay, and went a round with them. They had no alternative but to waive the fees since the Ebay page didn't exist. Yes, the page was absolutely gone, like it never existed. This guy was really good. He apparently deleted the Ebay posting.
He posted some books on Ebay, the same time I had my camera on Ebay. Those books sold. He got payment for them, but the guy who won the books, never got them. Paypal told me that.
I did as much research as I could on the guy that "bought" my camera. When he bought my camera, he had no less than four mailing addresses.
About a month ago, a guy was busted in Sacramento,California for selling items on Ebay, and not delivering. He had numerous account numbers with Ebay. I'm sure this is how my "buyer" worked. You open up a number of accounts, and buy items with bad bank accounts, and sell items, but never delivering. I'm not sure how these people hack into user accounts and minipulate them,though. If you keep your buying and selling below $500, then you are only violating misdemeanor laws and not felonies,which means most law enforcement agencies don't give a hoot.
For the most part, I've had good success using Paypal and Ebay. Granted, I've been burned on a few items. I bought a motherboard that didn't work. I bought a trumpet, that was advertised as "only two weeks old", only to have a really bad first valve. I spent $800 for the horn, and another $300 to try and get the first valve fixed. I ended up selling the horn on TH for $180. Atleast I was honest and told the buyer of the problems.
Paypal told me that in order to have insurance on the item you sell, you must make sure the buyer has a verified bank account and a confirmed address. Yeah, like I have the means available to me to verify that his account is good and has funds in it. Come on Paypal, that is YOUR responsibility!
What is unfortunate is that most buyers and sellers, nowdays, use Paypal exclusively. It makes it very difficult to sell anything on Trumpet Herald, Ebay, and other web sites if you don't have Paypal.
Its my hope that someday,a good attorney sues the crap out of Ebay, and Payal, and gets them to make their sites more secure. They owe it to the millions of people (users) worldwide to do so.
Mark
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JetJaguar
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Joined: 20 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Paypal told me that in order to have insurance on the item you sell, you must make sure the buyer has a verified bank account and a confirmed address. Yeah, like I have the means available to me to verify that his account is good and has funds in it. Come on Paypal, that is YOUR responsibility!


It's not my intention to be a Paypal apologist, but I would just like to mention that it's my experience that paypal does indeed verify bank accounts and confirm mailing addresses, and that they probably meant that you can have their insurance, or "Buyer Protection", if Paypal/Ebay has marked his bank account verified and his address confirmed. Perhaps his bank account and address were not confirmed? That information should have been available to you. On ebay listings, it states on the right side whether buyer protection is available, and how much protection is available. and I believe it is available when conditions such as verified account and address are met. Shipping charges can be exempted, so watch for auctions with very high shipping fees.
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KingSilverSonic
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpt.com wrote:
I've used PayPal quite a bit and recommend it but I have learned some useful things from this thread for future transactions.

KingSilverSonic wrote:
I always payed my Pal Pal purchases using American Express. Then I sat up a Pay Pal account with my bank. After a few more purchases it came to my attention that they were automatically withdrawing payments out of my bank account. I contacted them and told them I did not want them to do this, and wanted to pay through Am Ex - to no avail.


When I set mine up with my bank it also defaulted to direct withdrawal from my account for purchases. But it's just another click to change that default and pay with your credit card that you have on file with them. You have to do this for every purchase and even then it asks you "are you sure"? I guess it's because it's more cost effective for them to directly debit your bank account rather than paying fees to the credit card companies.

I just tried to make a purchase using Pay Pal and attempted to use my default AmEx card, but it would not allow me to do so. I would set it to default, then when I went to check out it was back to my bank account. I also decided to try to withdraw money that PayPal is holding, and this was the third time I have attempted this. I get a message that they have to confirm my e-mail address and have sent me an e-mail that has a "code" that I need in order to proceed with a transfer to my bank. Fine, except no e-mails are coming through - I note that I routinely get e-mail from them so I don't know what the problem is. This is taking up way too much of my time.
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