Please explain soloing to me.

miles davis yeah · New Member Joined: 06 Jan 2003 Posts: 7

Well, don't get me wrong. I understand the concept of an improvised solo. Today in jazz band, we got a new chart (a decent arrangement of Satin Doll), and my part (second trumpet) has a solo. It's my first solo in jazz band, and I don't have much of a problem improvising melodies and things, but what I'm wondering is: should I play WITH the chords, or AGAINST them? As in, the piece is in the key of C, and my solo has the chord Dmi7 among plenty others, for instance. So should I play that measure with notes from that chord, or should I just play in the key of C throughout?

I don't know if any of that made sense, I can't really think of how to explain my question well. But anyone who vaguely understands, your help would be greatly appreciated!

boofredlay · Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 9:01 pm Post subject:

I first want to say that I am no expert on improvising at all. I am learning more every day. In fact, I am taking Jazz improv classes with Ken Watters right now and I will try to pass some of what I have learned on...

First of all "miles davis yeah" ... do not rely on a lot of Miles' recordings for your influences. He was a genius Jazz trumpet player but not all of his recordings reflected it.
I, as would others, would recommend "Kind of Blue", "Milestones", and "Sketches of Spain". Beyond that, be careful. His phrasing and timing were lacking on other recordings.
And by the way, please nobody lynch me for what I just said. It is merely opinion and not law.

Second, you should play along with the chord changes. If you are not following the changes, and you have a good ear, you will know it asap.

A great tip I got from the class is... if you find yourself on a "wrong" note, move a half step up or down and it will sound like you meant to do it (resolve). Especially if you repeat it.

Again, I want to restate that I am in no way an expert, or even a decent improvisor. I am just passing on knowlege that I recently learned.

Good luck and have fun.
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Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

D E F G A Bb C D --- Play these for now, and then start experimenting with ALL of the resources you can muster from ALL of the recepticles of information! --- paint a picture in your mind when your playing. [your dog 'muffy' just died!]

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boofredlay · Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2003 9:44 pm Post subject:

Emb_Enh... [your dog 'muffy' just died!]

How did you know?????????

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IndianaGlen · Regular Member Joined: 23 Dec 2002 Posts: 21

It took me too many years to understand this: a simple solo done well is 10 times better than a hard solo (playing too many notes and trying to say too much) that only the trumpet section would understand.

(MO) Not only should you stick with the chords, stick close to the MELODY too. Listen to a couple of Louis Armstrong solos and generally you can still hear the melody. Unless your band teacher wants you to stretch, stay close to the melody and leave some space in your solo.

e.g. Play the first line as written or a little behind the beat. "cigaratte holder" rest two beats then do a simple arpeggio as a solo answer.

Having said all that, it still is your solo. But I wish I would have realized that a lot of notes and hard riffs more often then not don't make a good solo. You will have plenty of time to learn to sound like miles, chet, John F or wynton, and I bet they'd all agree with me anyway

pfrank · Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:58 am Post subject:

Play MUSIC that relates to the feeling of the song. Make it sound good. Analize it later if you must.

jhatpro · Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:53 am Post subject:

One of the players in a local high school band asked me for some suggestions for the band's trumpet section on how to play jazz. Here's what I wrote for them - maybe you'll find something in it that will help you:

To play good jazz trumpet you need to listen to good jazz players, including the best from the past, such as Louis Armstrong, Bix Beiderbecke, Sweets Edison, Dizzy Gillespie, Fats Navarro, Clifford Brown, Miles Davis, Chet Baker, Freddie Hubbard, Art Farmer, and Woody Shaw, and the present, Maynard Ferguson, Wynton Marsalis, John Faddis, Terrance Blanchard, Nicholas Payton, Bobby Shew, Mike Vax, Carl Saunders, Wayne Bergeron, and Orbert Davis.

Notice how the older players emphasized the use of diatonic, arpeggiated licks and accented down beats, and how modern players play smoother, more chromatic lines with even eighth notes or accented upbeats. Most players from the past tapped their foot on beats 1 and 3. Most modern players tap on 2 and 4.

Here’s a Website where you can download and print more than 150 jazz trumpet solos from all eras: http://trumpet.voici.org/ (If you have trouble reaching that site, go to Google and search “jazz trumpet transcriptions.”)

Another great site for transcriptions is Jeff Helgesen's excellent page at http://www.shout.net/~jmh/ Jeff has a lot of wonderful solos by Chet Baker, Blue Mitchell, Carl Saunders, Woody Shaw, and others.

You’ll notice that players from the 30’s and ‘40s stuck closer to the melody, built their solos diatonically and vertically with wide leaps from low to high and vice versa. In the late ‘40s and early ‘50s, players started moving away from the melody, played chromatically and horizontally with more use of passing tones (notes that aren’t part of the chord). They also relied on original melodies composed to fit the chords to standard tunes of the day. For example, the famous bop tune “Ornithology” was written over the chord changes to “How High The Moon,” and dozens of tunes were written over the changes to “I Got Rhythm.” Today, there’s a huge range of jazz trumpet styles, ranging from very melodic playing by players like Chris Botti to the very “outside” playing of Dave Douglas.

To improvise, remember that a good solo doesn’t have to be completely original or have a lot of notes. In fact, you can start by simply embellishing the melody a little bit. When you know your chords, emphasize the 3rd and 7th and leave the root for the bass player. Get used to playing in four bar phrases so you can keep you place in the song. Most tunes are either 12 or 16 bar formats. Also, it’s good to start transcribing solos from CDs as soon as possible. The more you do it the easier it gets, and the better player you become.

Eventually, you’ll want to learn which scales you can use over which chords. Check out books by David Baker, Jerry Coker, and Mark Levine to learn more about how to do this. Whatever you play, remember that the most important thing in jazz is not notes or tone or volume or tempo – it’s rhythm! In fact, a good way to work up an improvised solo is to stick to just with one tone for each chord and develop a rhythmic pattern that suits the style of the tune you’re playing. You’ll find that many chords share the same note so just stay on that note, playing halves, quarters, eighths that fit your rhythm. After you get the rhythm down, you can start replacing the basic tones with some others that make your solo even more interesting.

A great way to practice soloing is to get together with one or more other players and trade four-bar solos that follow the form of the tune. With just four bars to play, you won’t get lost and you can follow the tune/chords while the others solo and be ready to jump back in when it’s your turn. By the way, practicing with others is way better than playing to a Play-Along CD which is okay if no one else is available, but playing with people let’s you develop your ability to listen to what others are playing and build on their solos. It’s also a lot more fun!

If you’re playing lead, remember the rest of the section is depending on you to show the way. This means more than simply playing as high as you can. You need to play with a big sound in the middle register as well, and you need to play with good rhythm and accent the notes properly.

For some good tips on improvising, playing lead, and a lot of other things related to trumpet playing, check out http://www.trumpetherald.com This is a Website by and for trumpet players, including many high school and college players. You’ll learn a lot from them!

_________________
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"The notes are in the horn. Find them." Charles Mingus

[ This Message was edited by: jhatpro on 2003-02-12 10:33 ]

dwm1129 · Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:57 am Post subject:

Satin Doll is one of the great jazz standards that every jazz musician knows...it's a very simple song and although it may seem like theres alot of chords to know there isn't if you break down the form of the song and let your mind make sense of things. First it's an AABA form break it down learn whats going on, it's almost all ii V I's... once you do that you will start to hear the chords and it will click in your mind. Also learn what scales and notes sound good on those chords. Listen to the great recordings of this song besides Duke... JJ Johnson and McCoy Tyner did great versions as well as countless others....and finally just play simple melodies it's a simple slow swingin song.

musicmonkey · Veteran Member Joined: 01 Jan 2002 Posts: 344

Wow! That's a lot of transcribed solos, I guess I can never ever ever complain that I don't have enough music to look at.

Thanks, those should be helpful sites to analyze solos and hopefully develop my transcription skills as well.

mm

ejaime23 · Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:48 pm Post subject:

Im guessing, that if the piece in C and you're first chord is Dmin7, are the following G7 and CMaj7?? If that's the case, it's a a simple 2-5-1. You can stay within the key of C on those but try to highlight the chord tones in each key. Usually most other chord changes are best played within that particular key. Satin Doll is a great piece, it's part of our gig book collection in our jazz band, we have a lot of fun playin that piece, have fun!!

Aremtpt · Regular Member Joined: 19 May 2002 Posts: 14

Tut Tut Tut Roddy !!!!!!!!!
Try using a B natural, it'll sound a lot nicer than a Bb.

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

dah dah dah --- B different aremtpt

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Aremtpt · Regular Member Joined: 19 May 2002 Posts: 14

Don't quite understand your reply Rod.
Do YOU understand why it should be a B nat.

Miles58 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 902

miles davis yeah,

Lots of good suggestions here, but contrary to Eric's post, I want to encourage you to continue to listen to Miles. His phrasing and timing was certainly unique, but very rarely, in my opinion, "lacking." The consistent quality of his work, over long periods of time is staggering, and he continually remained on the cutting edge of the major stylistic periods of jazz. His forays into jazz-rock fusion in the '70s was controversial, and it could be argued that the recordings made after his "comeback" in the '80s were no match when set against those made in the first 30 years of his career, but even those recordings have "moments of magic", as Gil Evans said.

One of the best solos to study as a beginning improviser is Miles' solo on So What, from Kind of Blue. Fairly easy from a technical standpoint, but profound at the same time. Check out the analysis of it in Mark Gridley's book "Jazz Styles."

Eric, please don't take this as a "lynching." You are entitled to your opinion. Mine just happens to be different.

PH · Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:29 am Post subject:

Listen to the sound of the band. Sing the missing part in your imagination. Play so everyone can hear it. Rinse. Repeat. (I know that is easier said than done. If it were easy everybody would do it!)

p.s. If I had to listen to only one artist that embodies everything that is great about the jazz tradition it would be Miles Davis. There is no one else whose career has both the quality and the stylistic diversity. He defines the expressive and dramatic aspects of jazz artistry like no other.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2003-02-14 04:30 ]

boofredlay · Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:44 am Post subject:

Miles58... no offense here. Kind of Blue os one of my favorite albums. Anything from Clifford Brown will do it for me also.
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musicmonkey · Veteran Member Joined: 01 Jan 2002 Posts: 344

Which Clifford Brown album should I buy?

This belongs in the Recordings forum, but since he was mentioned here...I figured, why not ask?

mm

roynj · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065

It's great that everyone gave you their preferences when it comes to soloing. Your question, however, was quite simple. You asked whether you had to stay with the key of the chart when playing the chord changes. The answer is NO. Forget the key of the chart and stay with the chord changes insofar as you can keep up with them. If the chart is in the key of C major, yet the chord calls for a C#, play the C# man. Bear in mind that you are encouraged to play all the scale notes that would go with a given chord and not just pick out the chord notes. You will discover that 2nd trumpet in jazz ensemble is ususally the part that solos are written for. That's the fun of it. If you can get some recordings of satin doll and listen to the improvised solos, and possibly even transcribe them, you may learn something new. Cheers, and good luck.

boofredlay · Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:42 pm Post subject:

"Clifford Brown and Max Roach" is his best recording IMO.
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tryingtolivethelife · Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:11 pm Post subject:

the first cd I bought was a collection of cliff tunes put together by Nycholas Payton... ULTIMATE CLIFFORD BROWN. it came out on the verve label, it has so many kickin tunes(I geta kick out of you). The first time I heard gertrudes bounce I thought, not of a good looking woman walking but ofchristmas instead... but Brownies solo is so awesome. There are a couple tracks from the "with strings" album which is about as much as I can take of that album in on sitting. And it has Cherokee... also Cliff playing with Maynard and Clark Terry. No Joy spring... but you will go out and get all his albums after you hear this one. And Delilah is the best solo I have ever heard! I was singing with it the second time I heard it, so good.