Improv exersizes??

[tryingtolivethelife]

Now, I know that some people will say there is a problem with too much thought of harmony and not enough just playing or what have you... But I am wondering what you all do to work chords and scales in tunes?? Do you pick a Riff... and play it over all the chords. Then pick another one?? Or do you play the scale in just different steps? Or pick out single degrees and use them in improv over the whole tune?? Or like the 3's 7's thing where you use primarilly those chord tones to play a solo, or use those as primary resolving tones??

I am curious... always looking for a different spin on how to play some changes? Myself, I usually do a combination of these in with some, head chart memorization, working on Donna Lee and transcription. And lets not forget, hum a line then learn to play it. I do some of that too! But what else?

I know there are some bad cats on this page that could really tear up any set of changes the had trown at them... so what have you found most valuable or things you should"start with".

Brad Turner, the guy from Metal Wood, told me in a clinic once that was attended by myself and like three other people that I should play the chords in a scale, you know like 1357 2461 3579... ect. It built up my vocab and got me thinking more... virtically but that was way back, another guy told me to find I lick I like... play it alot with an abersold and then make it maine, and then write out in all twelve keys and learn it cold so it comes to me like a c major scale. I am not going to say specifically wht I think of either of those ideas but I find it helpfull to hear what one guy will telly ou to do, to build a vocabulary. Anyways... Ideas?

Thanks,
Chuck

BTW Brad Turner played a BAD take of a night in tunisia in saskatoon at that festival I still have it on video tape. on his Marsincowitz custom trumpet, man that was sweet... Shepards crook and all...

[musicmonkey]

Personally, I don't play chord tones (just as an excersise) that much. Sometimes I will quickly play the chords before soloing, but I don't want to worry too much about what is in the chord and what is not. Instead, I like to be able to hear what I want to play.

However, it is very necessary to know the chords, and if I had more time, I probably would practice chords. In the past, I have used the Aebersold patterns (triad, seventh chord, 9 chord, scale over and over) and founf them helpful.

Then again, I also don't play in many weird keys, and I am pretty fluent playing Cmajor without practicing the chords, so take my advice for what it's worth.

mm

[jonnydb]

There is a great book I just recently found at my school library called "Building a Jazz Vocabulary" by Mike Steinal. He really helped to answer the questions that I had, the same ones you have right now. If you look at solo's of great players, for example Charlie Parker, he has a bunch of the same licks that he uses over and over again in different ways, keys, inversions, etc. that make his solo interesting. I have been told many times that a great solo is 1% magic... I think you can figure out the rest.

Once you can play a ton of licks, and know your scales and chords cold, then you won't even have to think of them when you play, they will be like C Major is to you now. Once you are there you can start to play by ear, but you really aren't. You need the skills before you're going to sound like Coltrane or Clifford or Phil Woods, Miles, our own trumpet herald poster Pat Harbison, Bobby Shew, Arturo, Cannonball and his bro... the list goes on. These guys all paid there dues. Look at a transcription of Coltrane's solo on "Countdown" from his Giant Steps album. He uses the simplest patterns over and over, but the solo, if you've ever heard it, is awesome.

One more thing to remember is that Jazz is a language. Languages are best learned by listening and copying. Just think about how children learn to speak. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen!!!

Good luck,
Jon
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The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war.

[Jon Arnold]

I think playing the changes to a song on the piano is a big help in hearing the whole spectrum of possible sounds. To challenge your ear and fingers I would suggest "Patterns for Jazz" by Jerry Coker. That book will help you open your ears up. You start with simple patterns like you spoke of earlier such as 1357, and take them through different chord progressions. I am not suggesting that you be a "pattern player" but it will help you develop the ability to play what you hear in your head and develop some muscle memory in playing different logical sound patterns. I found myself hearing these patterns well, but it tripped up my fingers quite a bit, especially in progression I wasn't used to. The patterns book is a good improvisational workout for both your ears and fingers. Don't forget to learn how to comp chord changes on the piano. Lastly, I would recommend that you get David Baker's series "How to play Bebop" Volumes 1, 2, and 3. Those books helped me get the style I was striving to achieve. Keep listening and transcribing good jazz players. Good luck and be persistent!

[ This Message was edited by: Jon Arnold on 2003-02-15 09:10 ]

[tryingtolivethelife]

So... I have been working alot on outlining my changes with 3579 instead of 1357 and all. It seems to me the more I play the omni book the more Bird really doesn't use the one to resolve on, its just a harmonically solid point in a line grounded out by the use of the root.

Also I have a specific question in line 21 of Donna Lee there is this sub. Instead of going one bar of Bb then one bar of G7 its written as one bar of Br then three beats of D half diminished and one beat of G7. I can't see how birds solo says those changes as wouldn't the A he used be an Ab then?? Cause its Locrian for hal diminished right?? And when I hear the recording it sounds like the piano player passes through a half diminshed D... so is that all through the omni book? The subs the the piano player plays?? Or did Abersold just feel that one was important to put it?? It sounds like something that usually wouldn't get two thoughts even for the soloist. And for whatever reason it was written in... is this acommon sub? Looking at how the scales overlap there is alot of interesting stuff invloved. I have been experamenting with this sub for a prolonged period in the first four chord of a blues. Anybody want to explain it to me??

Thanks,
Chuck

[tryingtolivethelife]

Ohh and by the way I was just thinking as I read the replies again, if Jazz is a language how come we can't order a big mac through trading fours with the Mickey D's employes?? An aural art form?? cause if its a language, My apreciation of Thelonious Monk must be like when I hear a women speak Italian it is very beautiful/interesting but I don't really understand a word of it. I don't know exactlly monk was trying to say. And if its a language then we should all be trying to say something at all times or its like talking gibberish?

Bb G7 C7 C7 !!
(hopefully my being a bit of a smart ass doesn't rub anybody the wrong way)

Thanks,
Chuck

[Larry Smithee]

[tryingtolivethelife]

NO, no I'm not talking about a lack of undestanding. I am simply saying that if it is a language, I don't hear what he's trying to say. Actually I wrote a tone row string quartet once... Do you think it is possible to comunicate functionally with improvisation? Because a language... if it is a language should be able to comunicate something other than abstractions. That was all I was saying, I play alot of Monk riffs, as much that is possible on the trumpet. I don't really think I'm missing something, but you know I think its common to assume others don't understand monk. lol cause, the metal wood guy told me a couple years ago my fav album shouldn't be brilliant corners or criss cross, but Kind of Blue. I wonder what it is we're all "waiting to hear" in monks music? Is it a secret code that one day will make its self known?? Or is it just his uniques sense of swing and the way he made disonance almost sound as natural as any other "safe" note choice?? or perhaps that should be a different topic

Anyboy know the Sub in Dona Lee I'm talking about?? As far as I know it could be something very common place I was just never shown since of course I am self taught, there are things along the way I never caught.

Some Monk Funk... anybody heard of that as a song title yet??

Chuck

[musiclifeline]

sounds like the Donna Lee substitution you're talking about is simply a matter of throwing in a ii before a V to liven up the harmony a bit...

[musicmonkey]

I think your problem is that you try to translate jazz/music into english (or any other language for that matter). You can't. It's a completely different language, less developed, less acknowledged, and less understood than most. But that's what makes it so much fun! As jazz musicians, we can develop new ideas, new licks, new 'words' and we can use the ideas of the players before us. We can convey our thoughts through art without directly saying anything.

So, while you may not hear "Big mac, no pickles, sprite, and large fries" when a musician plays, hopefully you do hear and feel something more than just notes or chords or scales.

mm

[Miles58]

[musiclifeline]

My big suggestion is no surprise. Take two bars of any solo, learn to play it and figure out what changes it works over (you can get a little creative here and try to figure out other changes it works over besides the ones on the record), then start transposing those two bars around the cycle. That'll really improve your vocab. I generally do one per day, and just do as much with it as I can in about a half-hour.

Two valuable pieces of advice from the greats-
Kenny Dorham: make up your own pretty melodies and take them around the cycle.
Barry Harris: once you learn a phrase, make it yours by learning to vary it, add to it, or take notes out of it.

[jazz_trpt]

All good responses so far.

My $0.02...

Good jazz solos tap:

(1) Technique. You know what to do to practice technique. Practice things you're not good at, slow enough that they're easy enough to play correctly. Repeat. Alot.

(2) A wealth of melodic information. You get this from listening to ALOT of music. I'm not talking about plopping an album on as background music. I mean, putting it on and LISTENING to it. When I find an album I think I can get something out of after one listening, the first thing I do is PUT IT ON AGAIN. and AGAIN...and AGAIN. Listening actively, not passively.

(3) A knowledge of harmony that's required to perform in the style. That means knowing your scales and modes if you're going to approach things that way, and a knowledge of the changes (or the ability to navigate them on the fly -- being able to hear the way certain things sound, like common tonalities).

Practice PLUGGED IN. Think about the exercise you're doing within the framework of a chord, and all of a sudden, a Clark exercise or Bach etude becomes an opportunity to exercise muscles in your ear and brain instead of just watching notes go by and pushing the valves down. Then forget about it and play what you hear in your head.

Try transcribing a solo or two, or playing along with someone whose playing you admire.
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[bophead]

I have been doing some work out of J Viola/R Kotowica's book 'Chord Changes for Trumpet' from Berklee press. Once I learn the head to a tune, I will go back and learn each change using that book. I've found it to be a labor intensive, time consuming job. I am learning to play inside the change but ... I was finding myself playing the same solo on 'Work Song' every time out (Stolen Moments didn't vary too much either). Six months later, I am finding more to say on those songs I've learned. Learning the changes on other tunes is becoming somewhat easier. I've been using the Abersold series in conjunction with this process. It is a pretty frustrating thing (I want to be further along than where I am, today). I think this plan is working well so long as I make a conscious effort to find different patterns to play and improvise. The possibility exsists, in playing with Abersold CD's to get stagnet and or repetative. I have to keep getting my arms around the idea that I am making progress, although it is slow and somewhat tedious. One thing I look forward to is how cool I will sound in 20 years ... Have fun with it!
Earl
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Earl
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