View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
KAJR Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 148
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Buescher models |
|
|
Does anyone know, or can direct me to where I can find information on Buescher model trumpets (and cornets) ~ 1900-1950. I have heard about the 400 and Aristocrat, etc. I am looking for specifics on what was pro level and what was student level and how to identify them.
Thanks! _________________ Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound... Leviticus 25:9 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have a reprint of a catalog from the late 30s.
As near as I can tell, in that era, Buescher didn't make "student" models. In the late 30s and into the 40s, near as I can tell, there were three main lines of trumpets.... the Aristocrat, the Custom Built, and the 400. There also seemed to be a few other models that were still offered, though they weren't listed in the catalog that I have, and there may have been some overlap in the models.
Some of these models didn't have names, though they all had model numbers. For example, I have a model 220, which is a narrow-wrap "jazz" horn that is clearly from the mid-40s or so, based on serial number... probably immediately post-war. This trumpet has no name on it except for Buescher. It has heavy valve casings soldered together in much the same fashion as the 400.
While the 400 is probably the top of the line from the mid-30s when it was introduced until the early 50s when it was redesigned, the other horns were of equivalent quality, but designed with a different sound in mind. As an aside, the design of the 400 seems to be the least changed in that time period. It remained essentially identical, except in trim and changing the mouthpipe from nickel to brass, throughout that period.
If you're looking at Buescher trumpets and you have one that you're thinking of buying, by all means let us know what it is. But in the era you're talking about, it's my opinion that all Buecher trumpets were professional quality horns... they didn't distinguish. Just that some of them had features that made them cost more.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 683 Location: Hofors, Sweden
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
How about those 37B with a deer head, are they later?
They seem to be more simple the others mentioned. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That's an Elkhart. That's a totally different brand, though it was produced by Buescher. I've only seen photographs of them.
Some of the photographs of the 50s Elkharts imply that they're not all that different from the Buescher Aristocrats of that era, but I really don't know.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bachstradb4sprana Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 132
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've got a Buescher Aristocrat s/n 635xxx. Any info on where that puts my horn? _________________ 1928 Conn 22b
Reeves 42S/69 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mffan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2006 Posts: 1197 Location: Kalamazoo, Mi
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
bachstradb4sprana wrote: | I've got a Buescher Aristocrat s/n 635xxx. Any info on where that puts my horn? |
According to the Kirmser list, 1975. I think they were student horns at that time, not the earlier model described in this thread. _________________ Dave Rafferty Devillier Stencil (German) Besson 609
1960's B & H Embassy Trumpet, Besson 2-20,
Barrington trumpet.
www.kalamazooconcertband.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mcahynuacrkd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 1149
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
krax wrote: | How about those 37B with a deer head, are they later?
They seem to be more simple the others mentioned. |
We have one here. They are at best intermediate level horns by todays standards.
ELKHART
Looks like it might have a buescher sequence serial # on it. _________________ Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord
Last edited by mcahynuacrkd on Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mcahynuacrkd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 1149
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Buescher models |
|
|
KAJR wrote: | Does anyone know, or can direct me to where I can find information on Buescher model trumpets (and cornets) ~ 1900-1950. I have heard about the 400 and Aristocrat, etc. I am looking for specifics on what was pro level and what was student level and how to identify them.
Thanks! |
If the horn says "True Tone" on it I believe it is a professional model horn. These are mostly smaller bore horns, with medium large bores on the later models, the Buescher True Tone trombone that we have has a very small horn, it is a real pea shooter trombone prized by high note trombone players. Many of these Buesher True Tone horns are beautiful with nice engraving and lovely gold trim. Tim Hughes completely restored his Burscher True Tone trumpet and it sounds fantastic, that pea shooter small bore (433?)trumpet of his really sizzles.
Check out Tim Hughes' myspace page here:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=67391192&MyToken=eac60ea7-d50f-4ffd-82a3-502566e12759
Timothy M. Hughes can really blow the bell off of a trumpet, this guy is truly amazing!
Here is a band Tim is in:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=56680384 _________________ Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord
Last edited by mcahynuacrkd on Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:59 pm; edited 4 times in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bachstradb4sprana Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 132
|
Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | According to the Kirmser list, 1975. I think they were student horns at that time, not the earlier model described in this thread. | That's what I thought; I didn't want to be unknowingly letting the beginners that I allow to borrow it beat up a valuable horn... _________________ 1928 Conn 22b
Reeves 42S/69 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KAJR Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 148
|
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: Buescher Horns |
|
|
I recently acquired a beautiful old Buescher trumpet B-flat / A, in very nice condition. Small wrap, all silver, with gold flower engraving down the bell, marked The Buescher Elkhart Ind. USA - valves marked True Tone, the SN is 25xxx (~1915); LP (low pitch); 234 - which I assume is a model number. Anyone have any idea where a model 234 fits in the Buescher line in 1915 and what is was built for?
Thanks _________________ Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound... Leviticus 25:9 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mffan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2006 Posts: 1197 Location: Kalamazoo, Mi
|
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Buescher Horns |
|
|
KAJR wrote: | I recently acquired a beautiful old Buescher trumpet B-flat / A, in very nice condition. Small wrap, all silver, with gold flower engraving down the bell, marked The Buescher Elkhart Ind. USA - valves marked True Tone, the SN is 25xxx (~1915); LP (low pitch); 234 - which I assume is a model number. Anyone have any idea where a model 234 fits in the Buescher line in 1915 and what is was built for?
Thanks |
Maybe you have seen the Buescher thread on Horn-u-copia. There is an entry showing a picture of a Buescher no 5 Epoch trumpet ser 14930 (c.1911) Patented in Mich. in 1919.
(from Pryorphone) the no 5 trumpet had the Epoch system . In addition to the high 2nd valve slide, you can also see that the bell tubing exits from the 2nd valve on the other side.
I (Kenton) assigned it to 1911 based on Lars Kirmser's serial number chart from the number given. I have no idea of any Buescher patent in 1919. The Epoch valve system was 1901, "Multi-pitch tuning" was 1906, and the "split-no-Tone Bell", which was on their trumpets and cornets into the 20's was 1907, so I have no idea where the 1919 date comes from.
I don't see any info on a model 234 on the site. _________________ Dave Rafferty Devillier Stencil (German) Besson 609
1960's B & H Embassy Trumpet, Besson 2-20,
Barrington trumpet.
www.kalamazooconcertband.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
|
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Buescher Horns |
|
|
KAJR wrote: | I recently acquired a beautiful old Buescher trumpet B-flat / A, in very nice condition. Small wrap, all silver, with gold flower engraving down the bell, marked The Buescher Elkhart Ind. USA - valves marked True Tone, the SN is 25xxx (~1915); LP (low pitch); 234 - which I assume is a model number. Anyone have any idea where a model 234 fits in the Buescher line in 1915 and what is was built for?
Thanks |
Model 234? Sure you're not missing a digit in that serial number? Check the serial number on the valves themselves in case the one on the valve casing has been deformed in some way.
If you can post pictures of it, maybe we can tell by looking. But, my supposition is that the narrow-wrap horns were intended for dance bands and the such as the one I have (Dave, care to comment?) projects well and is relatively bright, depending on the mouthpiece used.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mffan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2006 Posts: 1197 Location: Kalamazoo, Mi
|
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Buescher Horns |
|
|
VetPsychWars wrote: | KAJR wrote: | I recently acquired a beautiful old Buescher trumpet B-flat / A, in very nice condition. Small wrap, all silver, with gold flower engraving down the bell, marked The Buescher Elkhart Ind. USA - valves marked True Tone, the SN is 25xxx (~1915); LP (low pitch); 234 - which I assume is a model number. Anyone have any idea where a model 234 fits in the Buescher line in 1915 and what is was built for?
Thanks |
Model 234? Sure you're not missing a digit in that serial number? Check the serial number on the valves themselves in case the one on the valve casing has been deformed in some way.
If you can post pictures of it, maybe we can tell by looking. But, my supposition is that the narrow-wrap horns were intended for dance bands and the such as the one I have (Dave, care to comment?) projects well and is relatively bright, depending on the mouthpiece used.
Tom | Well, if you added a number to the end, it would put it in the late '20 range, probably more likely for that model's characteristics. _________________ Dave Rafferty Devillier Stencil (German) Besson 609
1960's B & H Embassy Trumpet, Besson 2-20,
Barrington trumpet.
www.kalamazooconcertband.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
KAJR Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 148
|
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Buescher Horns |
|
|
You are correct, I could see it on the valves and on the valve block when I look more carefully. I am missing one digit, is it 6 digit 258xxx, sorry about that. I guess this makes it 1928-29? Does 234 sound like a good model number for that era? I am sorry I don't know how to post pictures or I would throw on one.
Thanks, _________________ Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound... Leviticus 25:9 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mffan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2006 Posts: 1197 Location: Kalamazoo, Mi
|
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Buescher Horns |
|
|
KAJR wrote: | You are correct, I could see it on the valves and on the valve block when I look more carefully. I am missing one digit, is it 6 digit 258xxx, sorry about that. I guess this makes it 1928-29? Does 234 sound like a good model number for that era? I am sorry I don't know how to post pictures or I would throw on one.
Thanks, |
I don't think 234 is a model, but not sure. Take a look on Horn-u-copia at the Buescher true tone trumpet photoed, serial 253564 circa 1929, it has the Bflat/A switcher and several extra slides. One of their other models in the erawas theMaestro . _________________ Dave Rafferty Devillier Stencil (German) Besson 609
1960's B & H Embassy Trumpet, Besson 2-20,
Barrington trumpet.
www.kalamazooconcertband.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
beaukoo Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2004 Posts: 435 Location: Midwest
|
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
If it is a model number 234, it is a model of Aristocrat somewhere between the original Aristocrat and the Aristocrat Custom Built. The serial number would place it's date of manufacture at about 1930, not too long after the Aristocrat was introduced.
Below is an admittedly incomplete list of Buescher model numbers that I and some other THers originally put together in 2005. I've made some additional changes to it.
Model 8 (New England Model) - medium bore
Model 9 - (Maestro Model?) small bore
Model 10 - (Professional Model) medium bore
Model 10-22 - (Professional Model) medium bore
Model 11 with A to Bb key adjustment
Model 13 - Bb to A rotary valve change
Model Number 200 (New England Model) - small bore
Model Number 202 - (Maestro Model?) small bore
Model Number 212 - (Professional Model) - medium bore
Model Number 2 - peashooter design
Model Number 220 "Peashooter" with resemblances to later "400" model
Model Number 232 Aristocrat
Model Number 235 Aristocrat Custom Built
Model Number 238 Aristocrat Custom Built
Model Number 240 Aristocrat Custom Built
Model Number 240 Aristocrat Custom Built
If anyone has any changes or additions to this list, please let me know!
Dave Brewer |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mffan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2006 Posts: 1197 Location: Kalamazoo, Mi
|
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Dave, much fog has been lifted. Will need to store this info, as it surely will come up again. _________________ Dave Rafferty Devillier Stencil (German) Besson 609
1960's B & H Embassy Trumpet, Besson 2-20,
Barrington trumpet.
www.kalamazooconcertband.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
petere Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2006 Posts: 345 Location: Great Lakes
|
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have a Super Aristocrat from the early 1960s. In the original case was a company advertising tag that lists the:
Aristocrat
Super Aristocrat
400
Super 400
My Super Aristocrat is a very large bore (.468 or .470) with a medium sized solid nickel bell. It has a Bach 37-like core to the sound. I recently played a Buescher 400 of the same vintage that had the same large bore but a lightweight ML bell with a modified French bead. I thought the 400 sound reminded me of a LB Martin Committee.
Both had some of the smoothest valves I've ever played. I like the look and feel of the valve body that flares out at the tops and bottoms.
Both are pretty nice trumpets. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Asian Man Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 801 Location: Elkins Park, PA
|
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Really, your Super Aristocrat has a large bore? I have one that is used and it has a lighter sound than my Bach. The Bell is silver or nickle plated(?) and is like 4.5", smaller than the Bach. They do have smooth valves. _________________ Bach Strad (lacq.) 37
Yamaha C Trumpet (silver) YTR6445HS
Couesnon Monopole Flugelhorn circa 1970
7 rims (Curry)
www.myspace.com/whistlingbarofsoap |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
|
Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
beaukoo wrote: |
If anyone has any changes or additions to this list, please let me know!
Dave Brewer |
Dave, the 400 trumpet is Model 225 and the 400 cornet is Model 275, though I've seen an earlier 400 cornet as Model 274.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|