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Best cornet for Jazz


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Oncewasaplayer
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this W.Vache clip! A delight to hear! He's just ripping right through this tune!
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GenoValet
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom turner wrote:
Hi,

... After I played the Wild Thing I HAD to have it . . . and I bought it from Flip.

That was in 2002 and I'm as much enthralled with the horn today as I was back then when I played it. I truly wasn't looking to buy another cornet back then . . . but when you encounter such an exceptional horn . . . you've gotta buy it! Expensive sure, but they are that good!

Tom


My understanding is these are made by Kanstul (?); can you explain the difference(s) - other than price - between the FOWT & the standard Kanstul cornet? Thanks
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GenoValet
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom turner wrote:
Hi,

Here's a 25-year old Warren playing his Benge:

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/warren%2Bvache/video/x17bf4_after-youve-gone-warren-vache/1

Tom


The info below the clip says Peter Appleyard did 75 jazz TV Canadian shows; not on found on Amazon. Anybody know if DVD's can be had?
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tom turner
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GenoValet wrote:
tom turner wrote:
Hi,

... After I played the Wild Thing I HAD to have it . . . and I bought it from Flip.

That was in 2002 and I'm as much enthralled with the horn today as I was back then when I played it. I truly wasn't looking to buy another cornet back then . . . but when you encounter such an exceptional horn . . . you've gotta buy it! Expensive sure, but they are that good!

Tom


My understanding is these are made by Kanstul (?); can you explain the difference(s) - other than price - between the FOWT & the standard Kanstul cornet? Thanks


Hi,

I'll be glad to . . .

SIMILARITIES:
1. Both horns are made with parts made at the Kanstul factory, on Kanstul machinery.

2. Both horns are made using the same cornet "wrap" . . . just as the same trumpet "wrap" is used on most of their trumpets (as well as used on many other brands (i.e.: a Bach Strad tuning slide will basically interchange with most of theirs . . . and their Kanstul Chicago's tuning slides will interchange with the pre-'56 Mt. Vernons). Frankly, certain "wraps" have been found to play better and virtually all factories clone these wraps.

3. Both horns are made around Kanstul's "cornet" (long) valve assembly in .470 size.

These are the only similarities between the two horns!


DIFFERENCES:
Everything else about the horns is different.

1. One horn is assembled on a fine assembly line, play-tested and shipped. The other is assembled, play-tested, picked up by Flip and then tweaked, modified and adjusted for over eight hours average . . . and these things goe well beyond just a super valve alignment/tweak that Reeves does.

2. The LEADPIPE is a totally different one, made just for Flip and to Flip's specifications. It really opens up the tight blow of the 1530 and makes the horn more capable of producing the power needed for some of today's challenges!

IMHO, it helps turn a really fine cornet into an "animal" capable of possessing more power . . . a huge thing indeed in today's amplified environments encountered in the jazz field. Although you can take the WT short cornet down to a delicate whisper and play those old cornet solos of 100 years ago . . . it allows the horn to be heard and with extra power when needed, whether a modern jazz played uses a mic or not!

3. The TUNING SLIDE. Flip's cornet comes with TWO different tuning slides.

It has the traditional one . . . for those "concert in the park" cornet solo gigs where summer temperatures will climb and where you'd want the tighter slots of the braced slide. It also has the other, unbraced slide . . . for normal, modern use! This unbraced slide is the one that is magic. I never use the other one.

4. Beyond the valve body, the other difference is the BELL. Flip's short cornet uses the same bell mandrel as his exclusive Wild Thing trumpet . . . a bell with a radically fast bell flare that also requires one to use more cork on their mutes. The result is a horn that can play just as softly as any, but one that can also produce more power when needed. As a matter of fact, you get a really rich, big/fat and powerful sound that will fill a room with the WT short cornet.

In other words, except for the standard .470 Kanstul cornet valve body, the other parts are totally different!!!

THE OTHER HUGE DIFFERENCE . . .

Although both horns are made in Kanstul's outstanding facility, Flip labors over each already completed Oakes horn . . . for over eight hours average. Sort of like a NASCAR engine maker blueprinting an engine, Flip measures each part and makes corrections needed to produce the very best results possible out of each specimen.

1. He uses special tools to inspect the inner tubing area and he removes any solder blobs, slight protrusions in individual parts and any other problem that might affect the performance.

2. He measures each valve and makes corrections for vertical AND horizontal (rotational) misalignment, then aligns each individual piston to be within +/- .001" of perfection. Since the first couple of weeks of hard playing will then permanently compress the felts of any horn about .002th of an inch (I believe that's the figure he told me), he sets 'em up so they'll be "perfect" for a long time . . . after those two weeks.

On most trumpet brands bought today, an hourly worker just uses a standardized thickness of felt for each new valve in each new trumpet being made . . . sort of like Bach uses in their Bach tune-up kit. This doesn't address the fact that each valve and valve cylinder needs to be corrected for the variances that happen in normal, high-quality production line work.

Sometimes he will cut down a valve stem to correct for a valve cap that's slightly fatter than normal or a stem that's slightly longer than normal. Sometimes a valve guide slot will need to be lengthed a little more . . . you know, those slight corrections to bring a horn that may be within manufacturing tolerances on all components (+/-), yet the sum of the specific parts might have made a specimen horn not quite as easy to play. Heck, re-felting valves with different thicknesses cannot always correct for some problems.

On the TH forums we hear talk all the time about "you need to play-test a bunch of identical new horns and find a good one" when talking of makers who are inconsistent. Even though Kanstul is as consistent as you can find in a great production line horn . . . Flip just turns each one he works on into the fire-breathing dragon that each specimen had the potential to be!

PRICE? What does eight hours of time cost to have someone of Flip's caliber work on ANY great horn to make it become a truly incredible horn?

Few indeed are the designers and technicians today that have the chops to tell the differences AND the knowledge, tools and desire to do this kind of work. That's what you are truly paying for. I have a friend who once visited Flip, and he got to play a batch of brand new Wild Things that hadn't been enhanced yet against those Flip had finished. He told me that the differences were astonishing, and that he'd have never believed it if he hadn't experienced it!!!

IS IT WORTH IT . . . to own and play a horn that is pure perfection and a pure joy to play?

Oh yeah! It is for me. I now own his Bb and C trumpets plus the short cornet and fluglehorn. All are incredible horns . . . as those who have played 'em will attest.

Geno, I've got a gig down in the Jacksonville area in mid-June. If you'd like to play any of 'em and see for yourself, drop me an e-mail. It sounds like you're a mature, working trumpeter so you'll have the chops, and experience, to appreciate the way these things play.

The short cornet though, is my favorite since it is so distinctive. It has a "voice" that's not a trumpet and is not a fluglehorn. The sound is so wonderful yet different that it is not uncommon for folks to turn around and listen when I put down the trumpet and flugle and grab the short cornet. Folks seem to truly love its gorgeous sound that is so different from the trumpet and flugle sounds they've becomed accustiomed to hear.

It is a wonderful addition to a performer's tonal pallette!

Sincerely,

Tom Turner
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My short WT cornet is incredibly versatile. It fits nicely between my trumpet and flugelhorn, and is my "go-to" horn for a lot of church gigs. Perfect for jazz, from ballads to ripping technical, low to high. All with that great vintage cornet sound, in a modern package.

Drawbacks? I couldn't afford to get it in gold, with engraving...

Be sure to check out mouthpieces. Flip sent me his vintage, regular, and a Curry mpc to try. I kept them all, as they seem to have slightly different sound and intonation tendencies, and all are perfect for one gig or another.

FWIWFM - Don
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

getting the jump on a 10-year bump
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kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A...
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Robert Rowe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll "second" (2nd) that Conn 28A. Literally, the "Swiss Army Knife of Horns".

On-the-other-hand, I seldom play much jazz any longer. Audiences do not seem to find it appealing. Wrong audiences ? Me ? Dunno.

Another fine horn is the early (pre-fire) Getzen cornet, with bottom-sprung valves. I have two. "Sleepers".




~ r2 ~
deplorable horn player

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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is a cornet? Is it the Conn 80A? It is shaped like a trumpet. Not enough bends. What about my King Silvertone? Lots of bends in that bird. Too many? Plus it has a trumpet bell section. How about a shepherds crook? Does that make it a cornet. I know. All that connical stuff. Really? Then there is the jazz question. Which kind of jazz? Funny questions.
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:13 am    Post subject: best cornet for jazz Reply with quote

My experience from years ago is: I played extensively with a Getzen Eterna, circa 1967 and that was a shepherd's crook if you wonder about the wah-wah stuff. They still make the Eterna and a higher pro level cornet and they are built like iron. Best valves ever. I also played a Bach long cornet quite a bit and liked that alot. That's something coming from me as I never found a Bach trumpet I liked too much, LOL. Schilke is good, and I know today people will point out Kanstul. If you want to hear a Getzen played Ole Edvard Antonsen from Norway uses I believe a vintage Eterna and he is very much world class. You can hear the cornet sound on YouTube if you look up his name and start with "Napoli." I always enjoyed playing cornet in symphonic band and occasionally in municipal band when i got older. Have fun.
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Mark Bradley
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Flip Oakes WT long model cornet is one of the best cornets money can buy be it for jazz or anything else. There happens to be one on the marketplace now, rare to see one. These rascals are around $3,300 new and worth it!

(I am not the person selling it, just passing this info. along in the interest of bettering humanity)
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love my King Master from the '30s. Tons of jazzers played these - I wanted to sound like Wild Bill Davison, and that's what he played. On mine, the intonation is, um, a little suspect, and the valves are leaky enough that its response at low volumes isn't what it should be. But even with all that, it has an unmatched tone - soft and smokey when you want it, with a nice hot burn on the sound when you hit the jets.

You can find them cheap on eBay, and they are fun little horns.
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone tried the 60's Conn 80a ? It looks heavier, maybe more made for concert band?
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VintageFTW
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone here tried any of those earlier Lyon and Healy cornets? I have one and it works great for smaller setting jazz as well as a substitute for the flugel I don't own. It is a shepards crook with a 6-ish (yes, six!) inch bell. It uses crooks and I think it is a large bore. It is from the 1880's and has crazy leaky valves, and as such takes immense air support, but it doesn't really effect the dynamic control, surprisingly. Mine just happens to be in rather poor mechanical condition, but it still plays rather well, especially with my Monster Oil "Smoother"... I can hardly imagine how well it would play if it were restored. There are many other great cornets made by Lyon and Healy, particularly the Own Make, Duplex Own Make, and Improved Own Make models. They can be hard to find though and even harder to find in good condition without forking over an arm and a leg.
Another suggestion I have is the Holton-Clarke Model. It is fairly heavyweight and has a bit much on the resistance side of things due to the wrap, but MAN is it a sweet player. With the right mouthpiece it can range anywhere from singing Arban's, sizzling Dixieland, small setting jazz, and select big band uses to brass band, chamber music, and older concert band music, such as Susa and any other marked cornet parts. It doesn't have rock hard slots, which is nice for intonation reasons and bending, but it also isn't like a Slip 'N Slide, so intonation and control are not an issue. Mine is a straight wrap, but I know they there are shepards crook models out there.
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1880's Thompson & Odell Boston
1880's L&H "Henry Gunckel" Sole Agent Cornet
1903 L&H "Improved Own Make"
Early 1900's Marceau Cornet *B&F Stencil
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1954 Elkhart built by Buescher 37b
...And many more
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JazzFluegel
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't read all the above, but I think my Marcinkiewicz gold-plated may be the best in the world for any style of music...mouthpiece sensitive to tailor your timbre...

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CDs BIG SWING, runnerduck.com/tempos_cd.htm
JAZZ WORSHIP, cdbaby.com
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1962 Conn 9A Artist Coprion
1948 Conn NY Symphony 12B Coprion
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