A Few Type III/A/B Pitfalls

razeontherock · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject:

Resurrecting this thread because a goggle search on pitfalls of a IIIA yields little else that really addresses it, and Dave Sheetz' site that had that nice long section about all that is down. (Or at least it won't come up here on my computer, after repeated attempts)

The best I'm finding is IIIA pitfalls aren't too terribly different from those of a IIIB? I would think playing too loud would spread anybody's chops, esp down low, but is a IIIA typically less sensitive to this than a IIIB?

Interesting contrast that a IIIB can play big and loud as blazes upstairs, but a IIIA tends to reduce to shrill squeaks. I'm one who is never afraid to stick my neck out by voicing a guess, if the answer will yield greater understanding; so as I understand the mechanics this is because pivoting up to ascend will sooner or later mash the upper lip well above the cutting edge of the upper teeth, and this will limit power? Also serve as a hard limit to upper range?

If that mechanical concept is true a IIIA would do well to pivot (track) as low as possible and stay there ascending as high as possible, using the pivot sparingly?

I'm not afraid to ask these questions (even if they may be stupid) because if I'm wrong about all this I'll learn just as much ...

Doug Elliott · Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject:

Ooooooooooo...............

Lots wrong with those concepts.

razeontherock · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:17 am Post subject:

The biggest problem is a Friday night that neither of us have a gig. lol

Let me try my hand at refining one of my own statements:

you would never play the lowest note on the horn using the most extreme extent of your pivot physically possible, and then try to figure out how to make that sound ok. You'd play that low F#, (on trumpet) and refine the position of your pivot by where it sounds best, while keeping everything else the same. Neither would one stubbornly refuse to employ the correct pivot for your type as you ascend, and distort the whole machine trying to be able to play. You would co-ordinate all playing factors sensibly, and employ your pivot as needed; again, letting the sound be your guide to fine tune your pivot and tracking.

Is that a better statement, as it pertains to that one concept? I could see how my original statement could be read literally, and confuse that issue.

Also, ultimately any type will minimize movement of their pivot. Or no?

Doug Elliott · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:26 am Post subject:

That's much better.

Where did "IIIA tends to reduce to shrill squeaks" come from? Only if they're doing things very wrong.

If you continue to "let the sound be your guide to fine tune your pivot and tracking," some players minimize over time, others not much.

And, I was already home from my gig.

razeontherock · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:49 pm Post subject:

Doug Elliott · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:47 pm Post subject:

I think Chris and/or Rich was being funny toward me because they're both IIIB's and I' m a IIIA.

razeontherock · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject:

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Ray,

Heres the deal.....

Both the IIIA and the upsrteam IV either place very low or very high one way or the other. This gives them the ability to create a lot more "turbulence" within the cup.

The IIIB is an entirely different animal.....Because the placement is so close to "half and half" (although there are exceptions) it blows more toward the throat of the mp which doesn't create quite as much turbulence as the other two types.

Therefore in very general and broad terms- the IIIB has the "fatter", "richer" sound. But that sound comes at the price of having to be very careful about not "falling in love" with that sound.

This is why so many IIIB's are "high F trumpet players".

Chris LaBarbera

razeontherock · Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:43 pm Post subject:

Very enlightening! I gather it is still detrimental for anyone to play too loud too low too much, but a IIIA may not be as sensitive to this as a IIIB?

Paul T. · Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:56 am Post subject:

I've seen IIIAs who can paste you to the wall all night long, in any register, and also IIIAs who are incredibly fragile and hurt themselves from any loud playing (I've been in that category in the past).

Kind of like a IV, when it's working it's easy and powerful, but when it's not, it can be pretty rough.

IIIBs seem to be, perhaps, more consistent in this sense? I think there's always a bit more of a struggle for a IIIB in terms of range and endurance, but the guys who take care of that business can get the sound and the power happening more consistently. (Much like how a "natural" in any field might have good and bad days, whereas someone who's had to earn it relies on slowly developed expertise.)

I've definitely seen a lot of IIIBs who get louder and louder as they ascend and then hit a "wall" at some point in their range (typically around high Eb), though. So there's that, as well.

(If a more experienced Reinhardt devotee says otherwise, however, trust them over me. I'm speaking from comparatively limited experience here.)

skip62 · Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:59 pm Post subject:

Hello,
since I can't access the article, "Quirks of the types" on Dave Sheetz's website directly as advised, does anyone know how, or can someone explain it in their own words ? I'm especially interested in the quirks of the IIIA.

Thanks in advance,

Skip
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bagmangood · Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject:

The web archive has a cache of the pages - here's the ones from 2011: https://web.archive.org/web/20111120185239/http://www.airstreamdynamics.com/quirksofthetype.htm (IIIA is on the first page)
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skip62 · Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:48 pm Post subject:

Thank you !
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If you can't help 'em, don't hurt 'em.