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loil
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Location: Marseille - France
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 Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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feedback? Story of bell shape and size? You should try the biggest bell in town, more than 5'...or a dizzy style horn , maybe. Hope this helps.
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1969 Connstellation 38B
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Rich G wrote: | | lipshurt wrote: |
Kind of looks like the culprit is lacquer when you look at my list. The berylium bell sucks too for hearing yourself
Copper is not great for feedback either it looks like, although copper and lacquer tend to go together
Doug M |
Doug, I'm not too sure about lacquer being the culprit. Two of the better horns I had for feedback were a Strad 72* in lacquer and an LA Benge 3X in lacquer.
My Schilke B4 with beryllium bell was not a good horn as far as feedback was concerned.
I don't know if we all think of "feedback" the same way. I'm not claiming I'm correct, but to me, feedback is not the direct sound coming out of the horn, it is the reverberant, reflected sound bouncing around in an acoustical environment that comes back at us. The faster the arrival rate (of this reflected sound) back to our ears, the better the feedback.
My casual observation and experience has been, all other things being equal, that trumpets with a bell flare that produce a broad, wide, "shotgun" sound pattern have worse feedback than trumpets with bell flares that produce a more focused, "sniper rifle" type sound pattern.
Bell size is less important than bell flare. Some of the better "feedback" trumpets I've owned had 4 5/8" bells. I owned 4 LA Benge 3X trumpets, all with 4 5/8 " bells - and all with excellent feedback.
Because playing outdoors is often like playing in an "anechoic chamber" (an environment without echo), feedback is harder to perceive. This is where monitors can be very helpful to aid feedback. |
Rich,
It's a semantics discrepancy. What you are referring to is dependant on the accoustics of the environment and the projection of the horn, so I would call it a projection issue. When I think of feedback, I am referring to the sound directly from the horn to the player. It is not what the audience is hearing, it doesn't give an accurate representation of actual tone quality, but is helpful for gaging intonation, dynamics and articulation if the pllayer knows how to translate what he is hearing. It gives a real-time assessment of how things are going.
It is important, of course, to also hear the resonant sound from the room, and monitors for those times when amplification and/or accoustics carry away or burry the feedback. Balance within an ensemble is helped by these also, but I think endurance is affected most (as described above) by the horn's direct feedback. The less direct (and resonant) feedback, the more need for monitors, and visa-versa. For me singing is subject to the exact same influences as horn playing, unlike the above poster. Go figure.
On the copper bell note (aha, pun!), the quote above fits your idea of feedback better than mine, I think. Copper bells have less focus to their projection than the equivalent bronze or brass, but in my experience, give off good feedback (my definition) directly to the player.
I agree with your comment that the broad projecting horn's sound can get lost in the accoustics of a room, sometimes, especially in a large ensemble. That's why most lead horns are focussed and bright with a good amount of cut. Those horns rely on the ability of high frequencies to pierce the overall sound in order for the player to gage his playing.
Perhaps, this is why solo horns tend toward a dark, broad sound pattern, while section lead horns are primarily tight and bright. The bright, focussed horn cuts through the overall sound of a section/ensemble, while broad projection gives the soloist a homogeneous, easy sound throughout the concert hall.
I love threads like this!
Brian
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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jsou1
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Brian,
Which leads me to think that the Benge 5X would be a good candidate for what I'm looking for? As I perform almost exclusively in a single horn setting with rhythmn section I am mostly interested in a darker, more broad sound although I do want a horn with some edge to it when pushed. I'm just not looking for a trumpet that is too brilliant and penetrating. |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| jsou1 wrote: | Brian,
Which leads me to think that the Benge 5X would be a good candidate for what I'm looking for? As I perform almost exclusively in a single horn setting with rhythmn section I am mostly interested in a darker, more broad sound although I do want a horn with some edge to it when pushed. I'm just not looking for a trumpet that is too brilliant and penetrating. |
Jsou1,
I've been out of town for a few days, so I'm just now able to reply.
Yes, the 5X fits all your criteria, but with one caviat. It has alot of brilliance in the tone, alot of edge if you want it to. It is very responsive to changes in mouthpiece and approach, and is quite capable of a wide variety of sound qualities. I learned this from another TM member last year. But it is a horn to be mastered by a player. It is not simply a "plug and play" horn. It needs to be explored. Romantic sounding, eh?
That's the way I find mine to be. Not that it's hard to play, but that it has more to it than one might first think.
Incidently, it is that desire to minimize the edge in the sound that steared me to try a Kanstul Woody cup. That did the trick and is my favorite mouthpiece to play, now. It gives the horn a satiny quality that can be lit up if I really want it to. If you want more in-depth set up info, I can give you my experiences in a PM.
Brian
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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RCR
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Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| jsou1 wrote: | Brian,
Which leads me to think that the Benge 5X would be a good candidate for what I'm looking for? As I perform almost exclusively in a single horn setting with rhythmn section I am mostly interested in a darker, more broad sound although I do want a horn with some edge to it when pushed. I'm just not looking for a trumpet that is too brilliant and penetrating. |
Alot has been said and all great points. For years I played a Doc horn with a geardinelli funnel mp. Total projection and bright. I am now older and found the 8310z a great horn very easy blow. valves the best ever.
You want soft you get soft , kiick and it is bright. changed to a monette mouthpiece and it even added more great sound. kudo's to every one on this site. Just so professional. |
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ConnCoprion
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | jonathanm writes:
<<<Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject:
As was stated earlier, the 8310Z that I had amazed me the first time I played it in a sanctuary - large hall. I badly overblew it - assuming that the sound was coming back to me and so couldn't possibly have been going out. Wrong! I was told later (kindly & by friends) that I was PLENTY loud...Oops. I just wasn't use to feedback like that. >>>
huh? that would be a good example of what happens when there is very LITTLE feedback to the player. By "feedback" we are talking about hearing ourselves. The only way to to really check this is by playing in a situation where the stage volume is very high and the monitoring is accoustic.
The worst I have encountered are:
Schilke B1 berylium sliver plate
Schilke b2 berylium silver plate
Selmer K modified lacquer
Conn vintage one Rose brass 46 lacquer
Martin committee lacquer
Yamaha 6310z lacquer
yamaha 6345 heavy wall lacquer
Conn 12b heavy weight coprion bell lacquer
All of these were good horns, and I played each one for at least a year
The best for hearing yourself when it gets rough on stage:
Conn Vintage one Brass bell 46 silver plate (very good for hearing)
Bach large bore raw brass (C trumpet convertible)
Bach 72 silver plate (very good also)
bach 37 silver plate (borderline)
Yamaha 6310z raw (same horn as above stripped! Still borderline)
Conn 38B connstellation Nickel/lacquer (grand champion for hearing yourself)
Conn 22b silverplate
Kind of looks like the culprit is lacquer when you look at my list. The berylium bell sucks too for hearing yourself
Copper is not great for feedback either it looks like, although copper and lacquer tend to go together
Doug M |
I'd have to say that my Committee beat out my Connstellation 38B...hence it's for sale. The notes of the Committee seem to blossom right out of the bell...unlike some Bachs and Conns that I have played. But interesting observations Doug, Good comparisons.
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dopeb12
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:52 am Post subject: Informative Post |
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| i read this post with great interest thaks for sharing an informative expreience many thing you discuss.i have not knowledge about this. |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Informative Post |
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| dopeb12 wrote: | | i read this post with great interest thaks for sharing an informative expreience many thing you discuss.i have not knowledge about this. |
Since this thread was active back in 2008, I've had much more experience with this subject. I'll keep it short. Individual horns may be good at giving feedback, while others of the same model and vintage may be less so.
I find that even certain individual mouthpieces aid in feedback while another identical one does not, though I could not tell you why. Even the gap between the end of the mouthpiece and the beginning of the lead pipe might have an influence. Or not.
I've seen all of these factors make a difference in feedback and I've seen them not. So, find an individual instrument that gives you what you want and buy that one.
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:42 am Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by dstpt on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:08 am Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by dstpt on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dopeb12
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:06 am Post subject: About trumpets |
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Thanks shofarguy for reply and suggestion me.
and also want to buy a trumpet but I have not much experience to play so please anybody give me suggestion which type of trumpet I buy. |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:13 am Post subject: Re: About trumpets |
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| dopeb12 wrote: | Thanks shofarguy for reply and suggestion me.
and also want to buy a trumpet but I have not much experience to play so please anybody give me suggestion which type of trumpet I buy. |
Most trumpets give good feedback. The ones I've played that didn't are few, but I'll list them here. Again, individual horns may be very different from my experience.
1) Yamaha student horns. Older models I've played were horrible for feedback and projection.
2) Harrelson Bravura. Each one is different, but the two I played threw so much of their sound forward that little of it made it back to me as feedback.
3) Burbank Benge 3X. This one-off experience was the the most drastic. I borrowed this Benge from our church Choir director, who had used it as a soloist in the military. The only way I could hear myself with this trumpet was to focus on my sound coming back from the monitor. Playing it in a large ensemble was a nightmare! Every other Benge I've played (even other 3Xs) had great feedback.
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Last edited by shofarguy on Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HillBilly Joe
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:24 am Post subject: |
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2 horns not mentioned that have great feedback. Adams A5, Stomvi S3 - I had a VR2 that had poor player feedback, but the S3 is much easier to hear playing in an amplified setting right in front of an obnoxious guitar player.
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Turkle
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:39 am Post subject: |
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I know this is a zombie thread, but all other things being equal, here are qualities that I have found improve feedback:
1) Lightweight horn
2) Lighter mouthpiece blank
3) Large bell diameter
4) French bead on bell
My 8310z is the best horn I've played in terms of player feedback. I also played a NY Bach, extremely lightweight, with a french bead bell, that had amazing feedback as well. I really think the french bead helps.
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rdotson102
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:59 am Post subject: |
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned on this thread was balanced trumpet designs. Up until recently, I was using the Carol Brass balanced model trumpet (8060H-GLS), which has some of the best feedback I've ever had in a horn. The advantage to the balanced design is that you're closer to the end of the bell. I recently switched to an older Wild Thing trumpet, which is by far the best horn I've ever played, but the feedback on the balanced horn was easily as loud and maybe a little easier to hear in a loud room. The CB is a really good horn, and played about as well as any Yamaha, Bach or Schilke that I've played, and I'd still be playing it if I hadn't decided to try out that Wild Thing. I think the CB is based on the old Selmer balanced models. There are also several other manufactures that made balanced models, from the Olds Recordings to past Lawler and Scodwell models.
On the standard design front, my LA Benge 3X has great feedback, while my Schilke X3L was decent, but not great. The Wild Thing is magical in every possible way, but you have to watch out for loud rooms since you can't get a sense of how loud you're playing by the feel of the horn. The WT doesn't push back like other horns do, so you can find yourself playing insanely loud without realizing it. You can always hear well enough to tell what your intonation is, but gauging the volume level without monitors is where I have trouble. |
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