Interesting set up technique possibility/forward jaw chops

[LeeC]

Might work for other settings too. Now either this concept will make sense to you or you'll be clueless. In the later case this probably just means you can't use the set up technique well.

Over the years i've fiddled with a forward jaw setting in order to grab some extra notes way up top. Sure enough it gave me some serious top end and with little struggle.

This range didn't come without some complications. For one I had trouble getting volume in the upper register when starting from low in the staff and ascending way above High C. And the second major problem was the difficulty of hitting the first note of a high note phrase on the money. The most important note in other words. Now the second note would be accurate but I honestly didn't know what the heck would come out of the horn in the first note of a high passage. Once I got above a High C or thereabouts that is. I might even over shoot the note by a freaking fifth higher above. Or maybe no note would come out. Frustrating...

These were two problems I never had while blowing receded jaw. My more "natural" setting.

So I thought about it and decided that the reason that the first note was hard to keep "in bounds" (on forward jaw) must have something to do with the smaller margin of error in the top lip while playing with a forward setting. As compared to a receded jaw setting which (typically) uses more upper lip in the mouthpiece. So I figured the key to getting my chops to hit the first note accurate (on FORWARD jaw) was by INCREASING the "play" within the embouchure and more specifically the top lip.

Well in recent months I've found something that really helps. I borrowed an old Maggio/Carelton MacBeth set up technique. Which at first seems odd to me because Maggio was such a top lip/receded jaw setting. Forward jaw players tend to be more bottom lip dominant. Thus I figured there wouldn't be much crossover value to anything written by Maggio. Not so.

What I did was before forming the embouchure and blowing a note through my horn I put the mouthpiece DIRECTLY below my nose while just BARELY making contact with my skin. Then with the mouthpiece hardly even touching enough to tickle my skin I'd set my lower lip muscles, slide the mouthpiece down to it's regular position and finally play the note. This way I was putting maybe 90% of the contact pressure on the lower lip. And with a very relaxed upper lip inn the general vicinity of the mouthpiece. My upper lip mouth corners would be firm but the area around the mouthpiece (inside & out) was relaxed & soft.

After some practice this really made a big difference. I was hitting the first note much more accurately, my volume stayed loud and consistent from low to high (without re-setting) and I was getting a lot more punch to my upper register. Particularly those notes around High C/D etc. The High G and above was also getting nice & fat.

None of this is an embouchure "change". More of a strategic exercise or practice "dry run".

What i figure is that by minimizing the contact pressure on the upper lip in a forward jaw setting the muscles OUTSIIDE the mouthpiece and in my face were able to "communicate" better with the inner embouchure. That and the lessened contact pressure allowed more "play" within the "gears".

Either this stuff makes sense to you or it won't. Don't trip on it if it doesn't.

Now in my normal receded jaw setting I haven't had much luck with this particular set up technique. It is just so upper lip dominant. The upper lip CONTROLS much more in my receded jaw setting that a radically reduced contact pressure isn't of much help.

The best way I've found at minimizing arm/contact pressure on my upper lip in a RECEDED jaw setting is by simply practicing the palm technque. Increasing my "palmed' range and volume. So called zero pressure doesn't quite cut it for me on the receded jaw setting. My upper lip needs to "take charge". Oddly a fair amount of contact pressure can still be maintained with just the gravity on the horn resting on the palm.

Anyway it is fun to be taking this forward jaw setting out of the practice room and into the gig. A real chop saver though it has taken a lot of perseverance and dedication. Not for the impatient or faint of heart. My receded jaw chops still must carry the burden of most my playing today but possibly not for long. For right now i can still do all the lead work on receded jaw for something like any given Tower Of Power or BS&T type of tune and for several sets a night. Certainly that's enough musical range though the DHC isn't really a note for me while playing receded jaw.

But as the forward jaw setting kicks in? Well the sky is the limit.

There are those here who do not want you to learn extreme range technique. They'll insist that "it's too hard" or "unmusical". "More to music that high notes" and a dozen other cop out type negative concepts designed to discourage you. While an alternate embouchure isn't always easy to learn (actually for some people it is quite simple like it was for Roy Roman) it isn't impossible.

The only thing that makes it impossible is the limited thinking and negative attitude of these so called "chop doctors". People whose ideas have more holes in it than swiss cheese. And a doctrine that pretends the laws of physics do not apply to trumpet playing. Silliness but plenty people take these cats seriously.

It's part of the reason we see so many trumpet players with inadequate range.

[md-jones]

tell it like it is Lee!

[hilgenboogie]

Lee,
Interesting post. I've heard of several people talk both about the forward jaw and Maggio before, including Roger Ingram in our lessons. I'm experimenting with forward jaw and "upstream" air as well, and it's great to feel high Gs, double Cs, and sometimes higher come out with ease. But I agree, it's tough to control and incorporate into daily playing.
I wouldn't be so quick to dis "chop doctors" though. I know that Jeanne Pocius, Pops, Jeff Smiley, and Bobby Shew are very into getting people into more efficient settings. I think these people understand the laws of physics and how they relate to trumpet playing pretty well.

Best,
Matt

[LeeC]

[Yamahaguy]

[soulfire]

I'm pretty sure Ingram uses a forward setting. His trumpet is straight out and his lips are equal with each other. I'd consider that more forward than receded. I play with a receded jaw and my friend (who takes lessons from him) plays with a forward jaw. Roger confirmed that his embouchure is very similar to my friend's and was specifically referring to the placement of the jaw. I do not know if he is upstream. Let me say that I do NOT take lessons from him and have been known to be wrong before. This is just how it appears to me.
_________________
Chris

[hilgenboogie]

[dbacon]

Geroge Graham talked about adding a fourth to his range once he got his lower jaw in the right place, more forward so the pressure isn't mainly on the upper lip. A teacher he studied with (maybe George Worth?) helped him with this. He said control took a while so you're dead on accurate.
Like Roger (I've had a lesson with him, very worth while!) George played with an open aperture for the sound. I think Roger also said it gives you somewhere to go (aperture becomes smaller the higher you play).
George and Arnie's Range Exercise works this, a take off on an old Maggio Exercise. Arpeggio ascending very soft, add two half steps at the top (still quite soft) then crescendo to full sound once you are playing the high note easy. Trains the chops to work correctly, and a very simple study to play all over the trumpet. Roger's Glissando's very soft do a similar thing, 40 times a day for 40 days!!! Maybe he said 30..
Heard Roger last week at L.A. Jazz Institute, he was really playing well. World Class!!
Of course Charley Davis played Sunday Night.......wow!!!!
He made the music sound great......not just himself, not just the band....but the charts really came alive! A great music lesson right there.

[Yamahaguy]

[LeeC]

Forward jaw playing can be tricky for a lot of players. The reason why Stevens-Costello had so many failures.

There is, however a strong correlation between good scream players and a forward jaw setting.

I can play with a respectable high register while playing receded jaw but have really really gotta "muscle it". Can take me many months to get in the kind of primo shape required to hit good High A's and such.

Then on a forward setting i can practically warm up on those notes and ascend a clear octave above.

[trumpetingbynature]

Lee, et al:

You might find that using a forward push of the lower LIP accomplishes even better results, without running the risk of TMJ (injury of the jaw joint in front of the ear).

The reason this works so well is that the lower lip is freer to move than the jaw.

It does take some time to develop the chin muscles (mentalis, especially), but the advantage in range (both higher and lower) without loss of good tone is substantial.

The other advantage this gives is that it allows a deeper tunnel of lip vibration than do flattened lip sets (as often happens with tight corner or open jawed players).

Wayne Bergeron is a good example of this type of lead player. Check him out!

Best,
Jeanne
_________________
Mizpah, Jeanne Gabriel Pocius
(978)317-4731
Professeur d'Trompette, Ecole de Musique Ste Trinite, Port-au-Prince, Haiti
www.instrumentalchange.org
TPIN's Chop Doc
Author of "Trumpeting, By Nature"
www.outskirtspress.com/jeannegpocius

[dbacon]

Just me, but if I don't have the lower teeth supporting the lower lip all the work effort's sitting on the upper lip.

[EdMann]

Lee, I, too, have a slight receded jaw set (as I listen to a 1981 Don Menza record featuring the "receding" Chuck Findley on lead). I've recently been turned on to the Maggio book by a rather reputable husband/wife trpt playing family here in LA and I know precisely of what you speak, particularly in the direction of moving the mpc down from your nose onto a set lower lip, as opposed to just mashing it onto compressed chops and my more vulnerable, much abused upper lip. And Jeanne's comments, at least for me, are spot on. It's far easier to move that lower lip out a notch than the entire jaw. After only a few weeks with this method, and after going 'Chicago' for a while, I've been able to find myself playing longer, with improved range and finally getting the sound in my head out there. At least in my case, I'm playing less AGAINST my chops as THROUGH them, which clearly happens when I'm too tight or the lips are too flat against the mpc rim.

Ed Mann
www.myspace.com/jazzlips

[healey.cj]

[LeeC]

[dennett]

[quote="LeeC"]

[healey.cj]

[LeeC]

[Chuckmonster]

I saw Andrea Tofanelli at Banff last week, and that jaw was out and locked when he was screaming. I never really fooled around with this until I read Hickman's book, but after seeing it IN PERSON, I'm gonna give it a shot.
Walt White had the same jaw look as Tofanelli with equally impressive results. Couldn't see Chris Jaudes' set up from where I was sitting, but that guy has some pretty serious range and power, too.
_________________
Chuck

[healey.cj]