Do I really need a double C?

bachstrad · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Mar 2003 Posts: 194

Is there some professional purpose to practicing to a double, triple, and even quad C? Right now I am a highschool student who has been playing for about 4 years or so. I am just now playing a fairly consistant high C above the staff. Even with this fairly limited range(so it seems on this board that is) I sit first chair, significantly above people cranking out, G's and even double C's. This is because they have frankly wasted their time on range exercises while i have developed an extensive technical expertise. I have never even seen anything above the Eb above C written in any piece of music. Am i the one that has wasted his time? Should i have been working on double, triple, and quad C for the past 4 years? Or is Double C simply some kind of bragging right for those that have mastered everything else?

bachstrad · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Mar 2003 Posts: 194

Quick Addition to my post:

While there is those really screaming pieces out there(ive seen the orchestral excerpts at my private instructors home), isn't that what a piccalo trumpet is for?

histrumpet · Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 9:38 pm Post subject:

_trumpetgod_02 · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 4:38 am Post subject:

Hey,

About the range in music. I have seen a piece where the first part spends a fair ammount of time staying above High C. And it even hits the F up there. I do not consider myself to have the "low-down" on all of music.... so I think that it would be safe to assume that it does work its way up that high and even higher than that.

Nick
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Jon Arnold · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2025

I think it all depends on what your goals are. For example, when I was in high school, range was very important to me. I loved playing lead in jazz band. When I went to college, I decided it was more important to me to become the best all around player I could. I also went from lead to 2nd and playing solos. I really got into improvisation. So basically what I am saying is that you need to develop a plan for where you are now, where do you want to go and how will you achieve that goal. I would love to play up to a double C musically and in tune, but I am not required to do it. I am a good section player and am happy with that. Range is just one aspect of playing, but if you want to be the best you have to do it all with excellence. Make a plan for you and go for it!!! Good luck!!!

[ This Message was edited by: Jon Arnold on 2003-03-26 19:24 ]

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

...Don't just practice hitting high notes...

...range practice attained musically will help you to make music well all over the range...

...don't aim to hit DHC ...aim to play up towrds it musically...

In the long run you hit only what you aim at. Therefore, though you should fail immediately, you had better aim at something high. --(Henry David Thoreau)

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[ This Message was edited by: Emb_Enh on 2003-03-20 08:28 ]

trickg · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:49 am Post subject:

In my humble opinion you are on the right track by not being as concerned with your range and working instead to be a good all around player. All the range in the world won't do you much good unless you also have some of the other basic abilities down and can play musically. I had a pretty solid High C in high school and not much more but my lack of altissimo range didn't keep me from winning music contests and participating in the State's best honor bands.

But, I also don't think that you souldn't work on it at all because I still wish that I had better range. It would really come in handy on some of the gigging that I do although I get by just fine with what I have. My advice to you is to keep it in perspective and work for a balance with all of your playing, to include working on your range. Just don't become obsessed by it.
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Redhothorn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 Dec 2001 Posts: 1173

Actually, you can do both. IMHO ... one should learn to play musically early on in their high school experience. Playing physically ... commanding the horn physically is what brings on extreme range.

When asked about building range ... Jon Faddis stated "Clarke Technical Studies" ... I have used Clarke Technical Studies, The Maggio System For Brass and Colin Lip Flexibilities to build my physical abilities on the horn. All of these also build technique, phrasing, dynamic control, flexibility etc.

MF Fan · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 9:16 am Post subject:

By the time you get to a college band, a high C range is going to limit you. If you want to play in the jazz band, lead parts frequently require high G's, and lots of playing above high C in general. Second parts up to high E's are common as well. If you're a straight jazzer that is comfortable playing 3rd or 4th parts until your solo comes along, then you may be able to get by with a strong High C. Anything above high G in a lead part is relatively uncommon, so Double C and above isn't a requirement. Even in a concert band setting, to play 1st part with authority and consistency, you'll need a note or two above High C, which means your practice range should probably be a full 1/3 above that. Assuming you're a high school player that has been on the horn for 6-7 years and your range is limited to High C, I'd say there's probably some fundemental short-coming in your approach to the horn. High notes are a natural by-product (with a bit of focus) to good all around playing. If you're stuck @ High C, there are probably other aspects of your playing, e.g. endurance, vibrancy of tone, etc., that are also suffering.
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Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 9:43 am Post subject:

If you want to be a lead player, a double C is nice but not necessarily necessary. Otherwise, a G above high C is plenty and you'll use that once in a blue moon. There only two pieces in the standard classical repertoire that go higher than that and most people never play either of them. Spending a lot of energy chasing a double C is probably a good way to guarantee an exciting career as lead trumpet of the Podunk No-Stars Big Band.

alex · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:39 am Post subject:

just curious, which classical pieces would that be? for Bb trumpet or Eb/piccolo?

musiclifeline · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:50 am Post subject:

If you want to have a really strong Double G, it's best to be able to play at least a minor 3rd above. For myself, I don't really feel I own a note unless I can play several notes above it with at least some consistency. For example, I didn't feel my high D was truly strong until I was able to play up to an F during Clarke #2 on a daily basis.

That said, there are players who have a strong double G but who have virtually nothing above it. It's always good, though, to have a little padding so that when that double G is called for, you're not thinking "ok, this is the absolute top of my range." It's more of a mental comfort zone to have to keep you relaxed and confident way up there.

wiseone2 · Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:09 pm Post subject:

Al Porcino, Bernie Glow and Snookie Young are among the greatest lead players.....ever!
Not one of them is a screamer.
They lead by a solid musical concept of the chart they are playing
Steady rhythm and on the money pitch are shared by these guys.
And a SOUND to die for.
It aint the loudest playing, highest note playing guys who are the best lead players, it's about a style and swinging.
Wilmer
P.S.
Check out the list of pieces for the Met job, no double anythings.
This is one of the best gigs in the world!!!!!!!!!

Garroid · Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 6:07 am Post subject:

You don't NEED a double c; I've been playing for 17.5 years, and until last DEC, I didn't have a double c, didn't need one.

I have one now, and here's what it sounds like:
http://www.garroid.com/d.mp3
http://www.garroid.com/7m31.mp3

Here's why I went looking for it:
I have always had range upto about an f or g, nothing fancy, solid most of the time, but unreliable. I sat 6th chair in the all-VA band in 1991, have sat on the lead book most of my life. I'm currently in the 1st ID Band, and have worked anywhere from the local coffe house to subbing with a symphony.

And I played with pain. I was good for 2 sets, no more; then the pain started and I would be seriously hurting by the end of the night. I decided that people like Ingram & Andre were NOT freaks, they have chops for days, and I wanted that. Duh. We all do. I decided to learn how to play like the people that say they don't get tired, and don't have bad chop days. Thankyou Jeff Smiley for the balanced embouchure. Ive learned it by getting the high notes first, and then bending the embouchure down to the playable register. There is much more to the method than this, get the book & see. I'm not there yet, but Im making progress daily, and there is NO PAIN. The only reason I stop practicing now is if I have to be somewhere else at a given time....

Some people hurt themselves trying to get the double c, just for the sake of having one. I say, If you can NAIL a double c as the first note of the day, you are probably doing something right, and can or will be able to play normal stuff for days on end with no pain. The dubba is a means to an end, perhaps not the end itself. A really good litmus test.
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_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 7:22 am Post subject:

bachstrad,

Just remember, that when and if you play doubles on the gig, all is NOT forgiven when you play that wonderful screamer. In other words, everything you played before and after the screamer has to be musical, as does the high stuff.

This is what separates the players from the pretenders. Don't get caught up in the high note frenzy so much that, at some point, you rationalize yourself to be a high note player, when you might not be at that level yet and are really a pretender.

You probably will have to be a pretender first. Recognize that fact and make your goal to become a player before you start using the notes in music. There are already too many pretenders doing that. We have a quorum!

Of course, if all you want is to be in the High Note Olympics, well that's different.

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[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2003-03-26 10:24 ]

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

I

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-02 18:20 ]

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

Well put, David! Could not agree more!!

Even in Vegas, F's and G's with an occasional A is all you need.

Dave Bacon

short_n_squeaky · Regular Member Joined: 05 Mar 2003 Posts: 42

I too have something to pitch in about range limitations

I've been playing brass for about a year, trumpet for about four months. I have a somewhat sturdy F on the top of the staff, but that's about it as far as playing musically goes. While I do occassionally need that F or even a G, it's just not that common for the stuff I'm playing. I'm currently filling 2nd part in my highschool jazz band and take on 90% of the solos with little problems despite my very limited range.

Might I also add that range is just something you can utilize to reach your ultimate goal in performing: moving your audience. If you rely on your massive range to shock and amaze them and little else, then you need to re-evaluate your opinion of your own skills.

When I'm improv'ing or just playing around with friends, I'm more apt to stay below middle C, I actually like playing below the staff more so than above because it's somewhat less heard and has a shocker effect if it's done with good tone. But I digress.

I feel strongly that you can be a great performer with much less range as long as your stuff is well done, unique (if doing improv) and sensible (I really don't like it when some of these jazz musicians get up and just fly all over the chromatic scale and wail high notes). Who knows, maybe some day I'll get those double C's and my opinion will change, but I really think that it's not something you really need to be a good musician

trptsbaker · Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 7:33 pm Post subject:

Here's my concept; the lead trumpet register extends from double-high A on DOWN. Anything above double-A should be left for the Glory Boy, whoever that may be. Okay, sometimes I'm the Glory Boy, but I try to avoid that situation as a lead player. Tom.

AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

You don't "need" a Double C. It's strictly for impressive purposes. A lot of great professional players have told me they either one time had a double C and realized they didn't need it so they stopped playing them, or just never felt the need to have a double C. Technically, all you need is a double G. To me, I'd love to someday maybe even get a Triple C but it shouldn't be a concern that is placed above strong, confident fundamental skills. Like that one guy's signature said, "90% of music is below High C". And believe me, I'd rather hear a player who never went over High C but played those notes beautifully than a player who could play Double C but had an overall terrible sound on the instrument below the high register, or in any register.

I happen to be a big fan of high notes. I love hearing them, I love playing them. So when I grow up (lol) I do want to have a Double C. But when I do get it some day, I hope I'll have the beauty in tone, musicality, sight reading skills, and repetoire to back it up.