• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

How NOT to take a mouthcorner inhalation..............


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Donald S. Reinhardt
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mr.Hollywood
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2002
Posts: 1730

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:13 am    Post subject: How NOT to take a mouthcorner inhalation.............. Reply with quote

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=82222


Musically Freddie is one of the all time greats. But after watching this video you can plainly see why he had chop troubles.

Reinhardt used to say "You can't cheat mother nature" and Freddie is robbing her blind here.

And don't forget, hes an upstrean type, movement is POISON to an upstream.

I saw Freddie live a few years ago and it was so sad. To think of how in the late 1970's nobody could touch him and here it was a struggle for him to get through 8 bars without completely airing out.

He called me back stage and wanted to talk chops. He even set up a lesson with me (hard to believe huh?) but he did. He never showed, and in a way I was relieved because he was so screwed up that I didn't quite know what to tell him. I mean it would have been tough because here he was this giant of the trumpet world who could barely play now.

I heard through the grapevine that he had been trying pedals to get his chops back. For a type IV thats like thowing gas on a fire.

At this point Dave Sheetz might be the only person who could help him.

At least there is plenty of his recordings and video from the old days for all of us to enjoy.

Chris LaBarbera
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
2-5-1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1381

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yo Chris, why is movement bad for a type IV. I've seen that phrase used here a lot. Does it have something to do with the low placement?

Mike
_________________
www.mikesailorsmusic.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mr.Hollywood
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2002
Posts: 1730

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it does.

The type IV placement is a very delicate one, if its a little wrong, its all wrong. IV's are also very sensitive to the slightest bit of swelling.

Sorry to say, but Freddie is a poster boy for how not to play as a IV. His horn is bouncing all over the place and you can clearly see his tongue is also used as a crutch for placement every time he removes his mp and re-sets.

I play many 100% jazz gigs with just a rhythm section and myself. Even after 30 years of Reinhardt training I have to watch my inhalations very carefully of I can get screwed up in a very short time.

Maybe if you fellas ask nice Rich or Dave or Doug will post a scan of Reinhardts "The Chop Opus".

"The Chop Opus" was a scientific study that Reinhardt conducted in the late 1970's. He used close to 100 players from Berkley and North Texas State. He studied these players carefully over a long period of time to try to determine the number one cause of all chop trouble.

In the end, "rapid interphrase mouthcorner inhalations" were the number one cause of all chop trouble. Standard mouthcorner inhalations ran it a close second.

Chris LaBarbera
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
2-5-1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1381

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I thought that the standard mouthcorner inhalation is what we all should be striving for?
_________________
www.mikesailorsmusic.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
2-5-1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1381

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh, ok. I see what you mean. "Careless" mouthcorner inhalations. I pulled out my copy of the Chop Opus, REALLY great read!
_________________
www.mikesailorsmusic.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6437
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Hollywood wrote:
Maybe if you fellas ask nice Rich or Dave or Doug will post a scan of Reinhardts "The Chop Opus".


Here you go:



It's a 72dpi scan that ought to read okay on your screen but might not look too great if you print it out.
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
stingaree
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 138
Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm addressing this problem now. On a gig last weekend I noticed that I was taking a very fast breath during a solo from the right side since my emb is left. Practicing exercises at home I tend to reset after a phrase to make sure I've got the firmness. Now I am practicing ballads, blues or whatever I think of and just "relaxing" the right corner a bit and taking a breath and this does not seem to disturb my embouchure. But in the middle of a piece I get this urge to take the mpc off my chops very slightly and reset because I think I am using too much pressure and want to ease up. I am type IV so I try to be very careful about disturbing an embouchure that is just beginning to work for me. I can see that this is going to take a lot of concentration and the "opus" convinces me that this is a crucial aspect of playing. And I'm glad you posted that video since I'm a IV and have seen videos of myself from 15 years ago but at that time I didn't know what to do to correct my problems.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
healey.cj
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 2011

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Freddie is even trying to breath through his corners, looks more like he is trying to move the mouthpiece so he can breath through the middle.

Then smash, crunch, crush, splat goes the lips lol

I've got a question regarding corner-breathing though if you'd be so kind:

Is the chin allowed to bunch during the inhalation or has it got to remain flat-ish? Because I seem completely unable to breath through the corners without the chin collapsing.

I've always just presumed that this is why you want to increase the mouthpiece pressure just prior and during an inhalation so that the inner embouchure isn't effected by the collapsing of the chin?

Thanks,
Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Doug Elliott
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1162
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like your description. I remember seeing JJ Johnson at a jazz club doing the exact same thing. He told me his chops felt horrible, but he sounded great. It's amazing what some people get away with for an entire career, until it finally falls apart.

I wouldn't worry too much about what your chin does during the breath. Just get your lower lip area firm again before your next attack. See red-circled point #2 in the Chop Opus.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JoshMizruchi
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 600
Location: Newark, NJ

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Chris, GREAT topic, thanks for posting.

First off let me say my embouchure as far as looks (not sound ) is very similar (to me at least) to three guys: Bud Brisbois, Freddie and Woody Shaw. Needless to say I've an upstream type IV. I have found that my chops can vibrate at extreme speeds and when it's working playing really can almost feel easy. I swear when I watch Freddie play I know exactly what sensations he's experiencing.

The type IV is pretty delicate as Chris said, not as delicate as the type IVA, but still very sensitive. A little bit of wrong really can throw it off. Movement is bad for a type IV, especially if they're ALREADY playing incorrectly because the movement causes the mouthpiece to "bob" up and down and the chops take a tremendous beating. Even if the chops are working correctly, they can be beaten by the mouthpiece with movement. The lips swell, playing becomes harder, the player presses harder to make it come out the way they want, and it gets worse and worse.

From what I gather, Doc tried to tell us that movement was bad for any player, upstream or downstream, but the upstream will be destroyed faster by incorrect playing in many cases. But downstream players are not safe either, and that's why it's important that when we practice we strive to eliminate all of that unnecessary movement over time (that's rule number 7 in the Reinhardt Routines as well).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr.Hollywood
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Dec 2002
Posts: 1730

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always remember that the upstream types only have one leg on the upper lip as opposed to two legs on the upper lip for downstream types.

So as not to confuse, both types have two legs on the bottom lip.


Chris LaBarbera
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DSR
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 267
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would you rate the mouthcorners inhalations of Faddis and Harrell???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-6uCywjluM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Doug Elliott
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1162
Location: Silver Spring, MD

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom Harrell is just a f-ing amazing jazz player... but we all know that. His breaths look about as stable as you can get... I don't know what influences he may have had, but he is a perfect IV.

The same goes for Jon Faddis. Total contrast in playing style, but his chops are a perfect IV. I saw one breath that was questionable, but mostly he keeps everything very much still when he breathes.

When a IV is working right, it's RIGHT. And both of them have it together.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jerry Freedman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 2476
Location: Burlington, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw another youtube of Freddie. I was fascinated because his whole embouchure was floating all over the place.The chops were together but there was an incredible amount of motion. I remember talking to my teacher at the time and asking how he could do that and still play
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
befro
Regular Member


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 35
Location: Baltimore

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:53 am    Post subject: chop opus Reply with quote

I printed out a copy of "The Chop Opus" (thanks Rich) and have been studying it. The four main points he makes about mouth corner inhalations make sense to me. My question is about the 5th extra point he throws in at the very end. "...the teeth (uppers in relation to lowers) should be set just as close as a good sound will permit"

Does this mean how closed/open the jaw is?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
healey.cj
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 2011

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just been starting to fathom recently why lip buzzing is VERY useful!

Because you can see all things you do when you breath or set the mouthpiece which you shouldn't!

I think that is perhaps the real secret to it. The isometric aspect is useful also lol

Chris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2-5-1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1381

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the past few weeks, I've really been studying the Opus, and implementing the 4 rules into my playing. For me, for everything to work, I have to remember to breathe slowly. I get great results when I do. But what about the inter-phrase inhalations? I mean, you have to breathe fast, and when I do, it doesn't feel comfortable, and I know that I'm breathing to fast. Also, I start to hyper-ventilate at the end of phrases. What do you guys think? How do you approach the inter-phrase inhalations?

Mike
_________________
www.mikesailorsmusic.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
TKSop
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1719
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies if this isn't the done thing around here...

But I've been searching the board for threads on correct mouthcorner inhalations and the scan Rich posted above seems incredibly valuable (in my Reinhardt-inexperienced opinion) and I thought it might be helpful to anyone who hasn't previously seen it, and perhaps to some who have.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6437
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
Apologies if this isn't the done thing around here...

But I've been searching the board for threads on correct mouthcorner inhalations and the scan Rich posted above seems incredibly valuable (in my Reinhardt-inexperienced opinion) and I thought it might be helpful to anyone who hasn't previously seen it, and perhaps to some who have.


Actually, that's totally the way things are done around here.

I don't know about you guys, but I need to relearn things frequently.

It would appear that one attribute of mine that continually improves is my capacity to forget what I have learned.

So I thank you for posting this again. Doc gave that sheet to everybody who walked up his steps for months and months.



_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
TKSop
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1719
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
TKSop wrote:
Apologies if this isn't the done thing around here...

But I've been searching the board for threads on correct mouthcorner inhalations and the scan Rich posted above seems incredibly valuable (in my Reinhardt-inexperienced opinion) and I thought it might be helpful to anyone who hasn't previously seen it, and perhaps to some who have.


Actually, that's totally the way things are done around here.


Great stuff, glad I've not stepped on any toes by bumping it

I've decided the first major change​ I want to work on (alongside working through the routines) is to corner breathe as it seems eminently sensible to expect improved consistency and comfort from this (in the sense that the results and sensation of inconsistent placement is psychologically uncomfortable sometimes)

On my jaunt through old threads it seems a consistent theme that sometimes the Dr's word choices have caused confusion if tackled without the aid of a teacher and when I'm in a position to take a few lessons over webcam I will be doing so, but for the minute I can't so... The chop opus scan seems to be very clear and transparent in its wording, but I'd just like to check that it's to be taken as literally as I'm reading it (a fault of mine at times)?

Cheers!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Donald S. Reinhardt All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group