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Mendez's Besson


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Brian Moon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpt.hick wrote:
Actually, it was a mink stole. The Mendez Library has several photos of her wearing it.

The sons of Mendez confirmed with me that he did record all of his albums with the Besson, even though all album photos have him with the Olds. Commercial videos, like publicity photographs required him to use the Olds.

Dave Hickman


Did he play live concerts on the Olds?
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trpt.hick
Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. After signing with Olds, all concerts were played on Olds instruments.

He owned the very first Mendez model produced, and was very proud of that. During my senior year in high school (1968), I went to a clinic and concert by Mendez at a nearby high school in Nebraska. During the clinic he mentioned that he was performing that day on a brand new Olds trumpet provided by a local store because he had dropped his during a concert the night before in another city. (I remember thinking that I couldn't believe that a pro like him had trouble handling a trumpet in concert.) Anyway, when he performed his first solo that night (La Virgen de la Macarena), he stood proudly at the edge of the stage as the band played the intro. Literally one measure before his entrance, he ran to the center of the stage, tossed the trumpet several feet into the air with his right hand, caught it with his left hand, and played the opening solo lick. He then ran back to the edge of the stage, and repeated the same thing on the next solo entrance. That is when I understood how he could easily have dropped the horn.

DH
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Brian Moon
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave did he do that with the mouthpiece in it?
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trpt.hick
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course. By the time he caught it, he had about 1 second to start playing.
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MMM
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oj wrote:
This is the info I have about Mendez' horns:

Trumpets:
French Besson Brevette
Besson Meha (when doing studio recordings)
Olds Mendez (Besson copy)
Olds Recording(pre-balanced model)

Mouthpieces:
Bach 10 1/2C
Olds Mendez 1

Would love to know what type his first cornet was?

Ole
Didn't he also play Martin Committee before joining Olds? There is a advertisement with Rafael Mendez for Martin where it says "listen to Mendez playing Flight of the Bubblebee on his Martin Committee". As a matter of fact,if you forget the story about the Olds-F.Besson conection and just look at them side by side, the Olds Mendez looks more like a Martin Committee, braces and all, then a F. Besson! And the leadpipes are the same. Well the Olds Super and the Martin Committee leadpipes are near identical as well! And the Mendez Cornet is almost identical to a #3 Committee! Check it out, but the bell flairs are different by far! Check it out and see what you guys see, and maybe someone can find that ad and post it for validity! Also, there was a Martin Committee on ebay that was made around '49 that had a factory made 3rd valve trigger!!! It looks identical to a Olds Mendez Trumpet! Did anyone else see it?Hmmm!
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's one Martin ad with Mendez pictured, although it doesn't mention anything about "Flight of the Bumblebee". I'm not qualified to comment on whether the ad's claim about his playing a Martin is true or not.


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trpt.hick
Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, what a hoot! The photo of Schilke is the oldest I've seen.

Mendez may have played a Committee before signing with Olds. (No Martin trumpets in his collection.) It is possible that some of the Martin designs were incorporated into the Mendez model Olds.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ren Schilke used to say the "committee" of designers was just one - him. Considering the fact Schilke was helping Elden Benge with his early horns, Schilke had the mechanical skills, technical prowess and playing ability to do it all.
This advertisement must be from 1939 to 1942. That was the year Bunny Berigan died and Schilke was principal in Chicago from 1939 to 1941.
R. Tomasek
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
...
This advertisement must be from 1939 to 1942. That was the year Bunny Berigan died and Schilke was principal in Chicago from 1939 to 1941.
R. Tomasek


I'm pretty sure it came from a December, 1940 issue of "Metronome".
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That date would have Mr. Schilke at age 30. (Born 1910, the same year as my dad). Berigan would have been 34 in 1940 with only a few more years to live.
R. Tomasek
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MMM
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChopsGone wrote:
Here's one Martin ad with Mendez pictured, although it doesn't mention anything about "Flight of the Bumblebee". I'm not qualified to comment on whether the ad's claim about his playing a Martin is true or not.

That's great! That's the second or third advertisement I've seen! The other one also mentions Rafael's lyrical playing on "Dark Eyes"! These are new discoveries in the Mendez legacy!
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Brian Moon
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpt.hick wrote:
Of course. By the time he caught it, he had about 1 second to start playing.


I gottta practice that
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rafaelsatchmo
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Update on Mendez Besson, Olds etc. Reply with quote

I've been corresponding with Dale Olsen, former director of research at F.E. Olds who was a close friend of Ralph's during the 1960s. Regarding the Besson's use in Rafael's recording sessions: Dale has no knowledge as that was separate from Ralph's concerts (over 120 a year in his heyday). Dale was wondering if there's any documentation on which horns he used, pre-war and post, in recordning sessions. He's a big fan of Besson and is doing some serious research on the early days of the company.

In all of his concerts and public appearences (including the educational film in the late 1950s), he used an Olds Mendez model (.460 bore). Ren Schilke (creator of the Martin Committee as well as his own horns) wrote an article for The Instrumentalist around the time the Mendez horn was introduced (1952?) and he commented that indeed it was an excellent copy of the pre-war Besson Meha that Ralph loved so much. Of course, Olds would copy, "improve" and build any horn a customer wanted. And you wouldn't believe the customers they had for custom mouthpieces...

Harper Reynolds -- whose brother was Foster, the gen. manager of Olds at the time and a colaborator on the famed King Master Cornet, not to mention his own horns -- is the one who measured the Besson. It had a different leadpipe taper than what Olds had ever produced. The Mendez also had several "improvements," such as 1st and 3rd valve triggers and some significant bracing. There was mostly hand work involved in building the valve block as well as the overall assembly. You'll also note that the Mendez has a number of machined parts (the ferrules on all the slides, for example) and a lot of thought and work went into the design and manfacture of the 1st valve trigger lever, which is a very lightweight stamping instead of a heavier casting.

The current Bach 3rd valve trigger assembly is a brash copy of the Olds.

Now, the controversy over the valves being "tight" is that, when measured, the Besson's valves were extremely worn and "loose"; not that the Olds valves were too tight. This is what Ralph was used to, so Olds just did a second lapping procedure on every horn sent to Ralph and the valves suited him just right.

An interesting annecdote is that, during the mid 1960s, when Olds was just introducing the Custom-Crafted line of lightweight and upper register horns that Dale had designed, Ralph tried the B flat and wanted to use it on a concert tour, which CMI, the owner of Olds, refused. Anyway, about a week into the tour Ralph called Dale to say that he had damaged his Mendez horn and was wondering if he could use Dale's Custom Crafted. Dale sent it out immediately! What Olsen didn't know is that, as has been commented on here, Ralph would throw the horn into the air and catch it as part of the performance, only this time he didn't catch it. After the tour, Ralph gave Dale one of his Bessons as a thank you, but not the THE preware Meha that he was so fond of and had promised Dale.

All this shows is that the great crafters of trumpets had a lot in common: A passion for the horn and desire for perfection. They took different paths to achieve this. The Besson came from a company that participated in the "birth" of the cornet a pistons in the 1830s. It represented an old world "classic" approach to brass design and construction, but with a French accent. The Olds was new world in design, style (art deco?) and construction (very robust with a lot of "billet" parts). Both companies made great horns. Period.

Sadly, they're all gone. Bach's the only American horn left from those days (OK, Getzen is still with us, but the King and Benge are not made like the originals or by the original companies) and Besson has gone through all manner of corporate permutations. And the Bachs do not feel or play like the one I had 40 years ago (they are "tinny" by comparison).

That's why I buy only old, used horns.

And I'd love a Besson E flat cornet!

Robb
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Olds Mendez (1959), Besson New Creation Cornet (1925); Courtois Grand Siecle C (1973),Holton 23 D (with Bach 236 bell and Melk lead pipe) (1962); Olds E Flat (mid 1960s), Olds Flugelhorn (1962) Curry 7DE and 7P mouthpieces
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Brian Moon
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bachs are not "tinny" after The Original Bore Correction (sm).
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spach
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpt.hick wrote:

The sons of Mendez confirmed with me that he did record all of his albums with the Besson.....
Dave Hickman


Dr. Hickman, did Mendez's sons also happen to mention what became of his Besson?
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WayneG
1925 (or '34) MEHA (#878**)(.460)(4 3/4" bell)(32.6 oz.)
"Where, then, does the soul reside with its better body while it awaits the sound of the trumpet?"--Stephen J. Gould
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trpt.hick
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have the Besson he used, and loan it to each other every year or so. The only way to see it is to be invited to their homes.
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spach
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpt.hick wrote:
They have the Besson he used, and loan it to each other every year or so. The only way to see it is to be invited to their homes.


That's very interesting. I can't imagine how allowing you to put up a photo of it on TrumpetHerald would be breaking any contracts, so perhaps they might share a photo of it with us.
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WayneG
1925 (or '34) MEHA (#878**)(.460)(4 3/4" bell)(32.6 oz.)
"Where, then, does the soul reside with its better body while it awaits the sound of the trumpet?"--Stephen J. Gould
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trpt.hick
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never personally seen the Mendez Besson. When I recorded a CD with Arturo Sandoval, Wayne Bergeron, Jens Lindemann, Jim Wilt, and Bob Karon last summer (will be available in a week or so), Bob and Ralph Mendez were to come by Arturo's house for a group photo. I asked them to bring the Besson, too. Anyway, Ralph was ill, so only Bob made it. Unfortunately, the Besson was at Ralph's home, so Bob didn't bring it.

There are a few old photos of Mendez with the Besson on the Rafael Mendez Library website: http://mendezlibrary.asu.edu
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spach
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpt.hick wrote:
I have never personally seen the Mendez Besson. When I recorded a CD with Arturo Sandoval, Wayne Bergeron, Jens Lindemann, Jim Wilt, and Bob Karon last summer (will be available in a week or so), Bob and Ralph Mendez were to come by Arturo's house for a group photo. I asked them to bring the Besson, too. Anyway, Ralph was ill, so only Bob made it. Unfortunately, the Besson was at Ralph's home, so Bob didn't bring it.

There are a few old photos of Mendez with the Besson on the Rafael Mendez Library website: http://mendezlibrary.asu.edu


Hi Dave...several years ago I looked at what must have been every photo on the library site and could not identify any of the horns as being his Meha. Of course, not all the photos are of sufficient detail to make a determination. Anyway, perhaps Ralph could email you a photo of the Besson.

Thanks for the heads up on your CD...will look for it.

BTW...I tried making a come back a few years ago, but fuzzed out. I'd very much like to hear my horn played by an accomplished player who could also write up a critique of it. If you happen to know of a skilled player near the Jackson, Mississippi area could you ask them to leave me a message on TrumpetHerald?
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WayneG
1925 (or '34) MEHA (#878**)(.460)(4 3/4" bell)(32.6 oz.)
"Where, then, does the soul reside with its better body while it awaits the sound of the trumpet?"--Stephen J. Gould
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spach
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved this post to a new topic.
spach
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WayneG
1925 (or '34) MEHA (#878**)(.460)(4 3/4" bell)(32.6 oz.)
"Where, then, does the soul reside with its better body while it awaits the sound of the trumpet?"--Stephen J. Gould


Last edited by spach on Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:24 am; edited 3 times in total
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