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jonas quizman
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Joined: 11 Apr 2005
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 Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: Nick D.'s tongue |
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Something to look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EJleMlHIrE&feature=related
Nick's tongue is sticking through his lips before he articulates. His jaw is pretty closed and his corners seem to be tight. Nick thinks he is doing some sort of MSC/TCE.
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lubonv
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
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Location: Paris - France
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Jonas, interesting.
I for sure can see the TOL attack.
We may not call it pure TCE or MSC, but the forward tongue may help any already developed set of embouchure. Somebody that already has long time control of strong good chops all around my find that the forward tongue may help even more and add even more control and diminish the strain of the rest.
As I can speak only of my embouchure I can say that I'm now playing very differently from him. Everything is much more relaxed around a tongue that take all the charge. After all I never had his great chops and I'm 'lazy': want to get the best without any strain around the tongue.
I'd also like to see how my embouchure look inside the cup after the attack. Were can I get one of that tools? (probably he made it himself)...
All the best,
Lb
Ps: New stuff on myspace...
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jonas quizman
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| lubonv wrote: | Thanks Jonas, interesting.
I for sure can see the TOL attack. |
Do you refer to the Balanced Embouchure System? Does Jeff Smiley suggest to stick the tongue through the lips?
| lubonv wrote: | | I'd also like to see how my embouchure look inside the cup after the attack. Were can I get one of that tools? (probably he made it himself)... |
No, Nick did not build his 'tool' himself. You should be able to buy such a thing in any better store that deals in brass instruments. You could also use a mouthpiece made of plexi glass to find out about your lips and tongue while blowing your horn.
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lubonv
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Location: Paris - France
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| jonas quizman wrote: | | lubonv wrote: | Thanks Jonas, interesting.
I for sure can see the TOL attack. |
Do you refer to the Balanced Embouchure System? Does Jeff Smiley suggest to stick the tongue through the lips?
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Sorry I meant just my own idea of TOL attack and I'm not even sure of that...
Lb
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tptguy
Jerome Callet Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| It's Ok to put the tongue through the lips to wet them and set the grip, most everyone will do it to some extent. For some, it's easier as a conscious effort (me), while it's nearly unconscious for others (Jerry). If not used to seeing loose corners, watch for the saliva coming through on Nick's left side and backtrack from there. And of course, the sound is always the best guide. Best to all, Kyle |
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mgronda
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Location: PA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Is there something wrong with Nick's sound? I think his technique is better than one who claims to use a tongue up setup.. Make no mistake, I like the standard TCE?MSC.
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healey.cj
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Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by healey.cj on Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NickD
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: The tool... |
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That tool, the ring visualizer WAS a Bach 1.25 mouthpiece. I had my buddy, Wayne Tanabe, cut it away for me. At first he refused. I walked into his shop in Arlington Heights and bought a brand new mouthpiece and asked him to cut it up. It sort of ticked him off, but he finally relented! 
I do some slightly different stuff now, but it is only an evolution from what I've got in that clip. I'm doing a lot of squeaking and have hybridized that into my ideas from hi-low gear and TCE. I got that squeak idea from some Jim Manley stuff I've seen, but this sort of thing has been around a long time and explained in a variety of ways.
Peace.
Nick
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| tptguy wrote: | | If not used to seeing loose corners, watch for the saliva coming through on Nick's left side |
Nick, whaddya say? Do you play with loose corners? |
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NickD
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:01 am Post subject: I guess I do |
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I quit thinking about the corners a long time ago. The business is in the middle! However, now that you bring it up, they are sorta loose. I often puff my cheeks out a bit on the sides when I'm playing to keep relaxed, and I circular breath a lot. I haven't tried circular breathing in the upper register. I'll have to have a go at that! That would be fun! I also don't feel fatigue in the corners when I play long gigs. In fact I have a hard time sensing where I get tired if and when I do. To be completely honest, I don't think my corners are as loose as Jerry would like (this from my recollections I have of a couple of lessons I had with him some 20+ years ago). However, as I fine tune my stuff, I suspect that's the direction I'm heading.
Nick
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goldenhornplayer
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Hi Nick--I think all this business about loose corners is highly overrated and somewhat misunderstood. Specifically, the thing to avoid is actuating the smile muscles and pulling the corners back as in a smile. As many Callet students know, Jerome likes to reach over and feel your face when you're playing. Well, I've done that back with him and believe me, his corners are quite firm. More accurately, I think I would describe that as firm sides as opposed to just the corners. But, IMO, it's just a myth that the sides should be loose in MSC. --Ken B. |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: Re: I guess I do |
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| NickD wrote: | | I have a hard time sensing where I get tired if and when I do. |
Yup - that's the goal! (Where's the emoticon for banging my head against a brick wall?  )
I think this is spot on; just overcome that dreaded smile to ascend habit.
Or better yet, never start it! Kinda different from the O/P, which is why I brought it up. Thanks! |
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lubonv
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: Re: I guess I do |
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| NickD wrote: | | and I circular breath a lot. |
That is interesting: I always did a lot of circular breathing on trombone (actually it was one of my specialties) and some on the trumpet (not much) before TCE, but the other day I was trying to do it and found it difficult.
Actually I just verified that doing circular breathing the back of the tongue has to go up for the moment of inspiration with the nose, while the puffed cheeks are briefly sustaining the note. The back of the tongue goes up and seal the back of the roof of the palat so that the nose can do its job to channel a quick inspiration of hair to the lungs.
Now with (my) TCE this seems not to be possible because being the tongue forward and the vibration in the front of the teeth generated by a big part of it, this make it impossible to seal the back of the palate (for me). Even the Gu or Ku articulation seem to be too forward to sustain the necessary seal in the back without compromising the tone quality too much.
Also, somehow it seems that holding a note when the tongue is not forward (in the classic setting) then a very similar tone can be obtained by modulating the volume of the mouth chamber behind the vibrational point at the lips while sealing the palate with the back of the tongue and inspiring with the nose.
This seems not possible with the forward tongue of (my) TCE setting because there is no mouth chamber but a direct and open connection between the bottom of the lungs and the compression zone of the top of the tongue against upper teeth and lip.
To seal the back of the mouth for the nose to do its work in circular breathing I would have to retract  the tongue.
How's that?
Thanks for reading,
Lb
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: I guess I do |
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Lucas, I think I found your problem 
| lubonv wrote: | | so that the nose can do its job to channel a quick inspiration of hair to the lungs. |
Don't mean to pick on you, I know English is a second language for you; just being silly today. Actually I think you're correct and I considered that before I ever took up TCE - not that I could ever circular breathe anyway. |
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lubonv
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: |
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 hahaha (hairhairhair). That hair is always around in TCE practice, hein? 
That's just a typo (said my english teacher when he saw it)!
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