Become a Trumpet Player BEFORE a Jazz Player?

Xenoman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Nov 2001 Posts: 1209

I am beginning to think that perhaps I have tried to tackle too much in my endeavour to be a trumpet player AND a jazz musician. When I first started playing the trumpet a pro player told me that I should first learn to become a trumpet player before I embarked on my journey to try and improvise. I saw the value in it then but I see it even more now.

For those of you who do not know - I've been playing for 2 years now (not a comeback player). There are many jazz related studies that I cannot practice or benefit from because I lack mastery of my instrument. Example - I can't play some modes because I simply don't have the range. Instead of focusing on the sound of scale or exercise, I'm struggling or focusing on just getting sound out because the notes leave the "safety" of the staff. Same applies to some transposition - it's too high (I usually just end up transposing the heads or harmonies to songs instead of the solos). Now I can definitely see where the pro player was coming from when he told me to become a trumpet player before moving to jazz.

That being said - I know for a fact that if I stick to playing legit etudes and music I'm going to get bored. I picked the trumpet up to play JAZZ. I have an tremendous appreciation for legit music and I don't mind playing it for church and the community band - but my focus was (and still is) to learn improvisation. How did many of you approach it? Did you learn the trumpet first or did you do both at the same time? Do I need to change my mind set in order to keep things interesting or are there things I can do (or books I can buy) to keep things interesting while I learn to become a trumpet player?

As usual - I asked my teacher already but as always - additional opinions and suggestions are always welcome...

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[ This Message was edited by: Xenoman on 2003-04-14 10:00 ]

AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

Before you get caught up in learning about what being a jazz player is, you should be able to play the instrument reasonably well. I personally approached them at the same time. When I started, I was able to play the trumpet very well technically naturally (though I didn't really have an understanding of it) so it made it a little easier for me to jump right into jazz playing. If you feel you can do both at the same time by all means go for it. You should have your playing down pretty well though, but once you do (if you don't already), keep practicing jazz music and keep playing it (and keep doing classical too

)...

As for approaching improvisation...Here is a problem too many people have: They think about it. Too many people look at improvisation with a scientific or analytical mentality when they're just starting out. Who made the rule you had to do that right away? If you're just getting into it, get used to doing it. Who cares if you do some things wrong. When I first started I couldn't even keep my ideas on beat because they came out so quickly that I had to slow down. Then as I started to control my mind and my instrument more I got it and now I can play almost anything no matter how fast it is and not get off beat. When you master improvisation, then you can start getting analytical...and start thinking from that perspective. But until then why worry? Just have fun and get your feet wet, and you will progress more than if you try to get too intellectual. That's the problem with jazzers sometimes. They get too intellectual, so much in fact that they get boring. So overall I'd say if you're prepared, learn the technique and improvise too.

bophead · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:09 am Post subject:

I have been chasing the jazz dream for a while. My practice these days is slanted towards being a better trumpet player who plays jazz. I center my studies and a great deal of practice time in the Maggio Book. I try and find complimentary exercises in the Arbans and St Jacomes. That done, I spend time in the Chord Studies for Trumpet by Kotiwica and Viola and then play tunes it is a slow process but I am progressing in both areas. My goal is to have the choice in the music I play and that calls for me to be a strong trumpet player first.
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jhatpro · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:23 am Post subject:

Xman,

I think we've created a new word here. If you're not a comeback player then that makes you a neverleft player.
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Jarrett Ellis · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 649

Hey, I think these guys are right on, you gotta work on your technical skills and jazz alike, you have to find a balance. Case in point, Clifford Brown loved to play classical music, and practiced his techique for hours a day while incorporating it into his jazz. I also think starting out with jazz and improv can be beneficial in the long run because sometimes players who only practice their classical skills for their first years get to where technique and written music is a crutch. My advice would be to balance both. Just my two cents

Good luck.

jazz_trpt · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:05 am Post subject:

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-30 15:21 ]

tims9999 · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 3:51 pm Post subject:

I was in a similar boat not too long ago. I wanted just to play fun music, not scales, etudes, arpeggios, ect.. What I do now is spend 80% of my time doing drills that will improve certain areas of my playing (may it be articulative studies or slurs - the list goes on.) After I have done the work, I reward myself AND apply what I have learned by playing music that I would call "fun." Like it has been said in other forum posts, when playing drills, play them like they are from composers you like. Maybe not go as far as swinging the etudes, but see the purpose of them.

EBjazz · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 4:42 pm Post subject:

Perhaps try some easier jazz material like "Rhythms Complete" by Bugs Bower or some of the Niehaus stuff before jumping headlong into an intensive improv course.
That with some fundamental Clarke, Arbans and St. Jacome and you should be playing those Clifford solos in, oh, 15 or 20 years.

Eb
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Xenoman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Nov 2001 Posts: 1209

Thanks for the suggestions.

I hope no one here thinks that I am foolish enough to think I will become some great jazz musician in a year or two (or 3 or 4 or 5...). The two years that I've put in have shown me that it takes hard work, patience and a love for music.

Fortuantely - I have all of those qualities. I'm in this for the long haul.

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-Eric M. Brewington
http://www.jazzician.org

[ This Message was edited by: Xenoman on 2003-04-14 22:32 ]

Kateeba · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:43 pm Post subject:

Patience Grasshopper! Patience, and more patience.

It will come, but do NOT give up on improvising.

I realize you have trumpet troubles getting those notes out, and you should do all the embouchure studies you can to work on that, but don't neglect your improvising. Always find some time to devote to "playing" with your horn and have fun with it. Experiment, try things, if you can't go upstairs yet, play downstairs. My approach is to work on the embouchure studies to be "able" to play, then you have to apply that is some way (and that, in itself, is practice), either to reading or improvisation or both. Embouchure studies by themselves are NOT really playing music. At least not the music I know you want to play. Do what you can at your level. You are doing great for 2 years. I hear your stuff. But there is always that tendency to want to do it "today". We can't always do that, and it causes frequent frustrations.

On my second or third trumpet lesson (many many years ago) with my first and only teacher, I asked him if it was possible to "play whatever you think". He said "Oh that takes a long time". From then on, that was my goal, to be able to improvise at will.

After awhile, you will learn to integrate your embouchure studies into the improvisation so that you can do it with more fun. It takes time and patience though.

Hang in there kid............... Lou
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dwm1129 · Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:22 pm Post subject:

Eric,
Find the positive aspects in having limited technique. Alot of people who have command of their horn before aproaching improvisation let technique get in their way of making music and creating a meaningful solo. They will fall back on their be-bopish runs and licks that make no sense at all. You on the other hand can't do that, your mind will have to work to further devolop your ideas without nonsense. You are in a great position to devolop.

Jarrett Ellis · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 649

Oh jeez.... now I gotta quote my sources

, well I'm pretty sure It was an interview with his wife where I heard this... but I will go looking through my collection to make sure. I'll can most certainly quote the exact source later, but she said that he was very active in his classical studies throughout his career, I will give you a link to follow, but it isn't the exact quote I am thinking of, it just mentions his dabbling in classical music. The real source is forthcoming. Thanks!
http://www.cliffordbrown.net/quotes/larue.html
also, I'm not upset at all for your questioning my source

I half expected someone to.
-J

Jarrett Ellis · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 649

Hey Jazztrpt... found my source. Jazz Times, June 1980, entitled Clifford Brown. its an interview with Larue Brown Watson.
Larue " He also liked Rafael Mendez; during those days Rafael had a music book out, and Clifford would practice by the hour with that"
Also Downbeat July 1980
Harry Andrews: "I started him on the Prescott System, which is based on the Arban's Method [for cornet]."
"I also introduced him to the non-pressure system. He had been using a lot of pressure in putting his lips to the mouthpiece. I also rememeber that he had an excellenct embouchure. He put two- thirds of his lower lip into the mouthpiece."
"When he came to us, he was a good intermediate player. But he played the 'Carnival of Venice' as his graduation solo, and I mean he really played it. I can still remember him playing it"

kenwatters · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:22 am Post subject:

Xenoman writes:
"are there things I can do (or books I can buy) to keep things interesting while I learn to become a trumpet player?"

Hi Xenoman / Eric!

Well, I can tell you this -- as long as you play trumpet & no matter how good you get at the actual "operation" of the instrument, the struggle to get what's in your head out the bell of the horn completely accurately will be everpresent. Learning to play the trumpet well is absolutely VITAL to becoming a good jazz player. It can be compared to visual arts in a big way -- artists have have great "drawing" skills to put what they really see in their heads onto the canvas. Having excellent technique is a means to an end when it comes to jazz...
One etude book that has stood the test of time & works EVERY aspect of playing is Arban (some call it the Bible for trumpeters). And, if you're worried about getting "bored" with classical-oriented studies, a book that you may want to get (a little further down the line) is Theo Charlier Etudes. The pieces contained in this book are SO beautiful & musical that you won't even NOTICE how technically demanding they are -- Charlier sort of "sneaks it up" on you within the etudes. This book is quite appealing to jazz players, simply because the music is so HIP regardless of the style. They ARE advanced-level studies, but well worth checking out when you're ready.
Take care!
Ken

jazz_trpt · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:00 am Post subject:

Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399

jazz_trpt · Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 12:23 pm Post subject:

Larry:

Yeah, but try it on a Blessing Artist trumpet! (blech)

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Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 4399

Yeah, good point, I forgot about that.
Larry Smithee

Jarrett Ellis · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Posts: 649

Jazztrpt.. I believe you'd probably be hard pressed to find those particular sources online... I've got some old hard copies here... I can probably scan them if you'd like a good look, there's some real good articles! Also I don't debate that he was working on Jazz first , actually your right he first got started on listening before he even started playing anything classical. I think thats where he got such a great start... not to mention being a genius. But who am I to try and figure out his genius>

-J