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King Silver Flair Question


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musicmork
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: King Silver Flair Question Reply with quote

Are the late70's vintage King Silver Flair trumpets that were manufactured in East Lake Ohio (post Cleveland but Pre UMI) considered to be lesser quality than the HN White ones before 1970 ?

I would greatly appreciate any information, opinions, insight etc.

Thanks.....
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plankowner110
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't think so. As I recall, the Silver Flair was introduced by the H. N. White Co. in 1964. Mrs. White sold the H.N. White Co. in 1965 and it became King Musical Instruments. All tooling and employees were moved from Superior Avenue in Cleveland to the new Eastlake, Ohio facility around that same time. The Silver Flair was still the same horn built by the same craftsmen and craftswomen. Production of the vintage model Silver Flair ended in 1979, and in 1980, King introduced a whole new line of trumpets called the 2000 Series.
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info.

Would you know if the markings would have changed? Would it say "FLAIR" on the leadpipe ? I can't seem to find a photo of a late 70's Silver Flair showing it's markings.
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plankowner110
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some Silver Flairs had "Flair" with the King emblem engraved on the mouthpiece receiver and others were engraved "Silver Flair", but I don't remember which style came first.
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never knew this until tonight...but apparently from the research I have done on King Silver Flairs...they are all .462 bore. That is a large bore and would be harder to play and fill than the .459 and .460 ML bores that I am used to.
Is there a reason why the Silver Flair's bore is only one size ?
And is it hard to fill for the average player?
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atsfjohn
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only speak for the .462 bore UMI King Silver Flairs--they are one of the easiest, most free-blowing trumpets I have ever played. The ones I have played were very good in the high register with a big sound that projects very well, but easy to play throughout the register. My friend/teacher played a UMI Silver Flair for a few years for lead trumpet work prior to now using a UMI Benge 3X (.460 bore) as his main horn.

Both of us used .463 bore Courtois 311 trumpets for several years previously.

The UMI King Silver Flair is a "good intermediate" or "lower level professional instrument" and is marketed as a great value for the money. It is not hard to blow and does not wear you out.

Two local music stores have reported selling TWICE AS MANY UMI Silver Flairs as Bach Stradivarius trumpets over the last couple years. Many buyers like the sound of the Bach, but for less than half the money are happy to buy a Silver Flair instead (or a Jupiter trumpet).

John
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mcahynuacrkd
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We live in a Bach is King world.

Kids are pressured by band directors and college professors to play a Bach Strad, 37, etc.

If you are a kid, looking for a trumpet to get you past hs and thru college , your safest bet is a Bach Strad, 37.

What trumpet sounds the finest is a mute point in a world that only sees the Bach 37 Strad as having acceptable sound, or the proper sound that blends.

Kids, many of you are on a budget, and many of you are pressured to use Bach. Your safest bet is to buy the Bach 37 , and also an inexpensive good used trumpet like an Olds Ambassador to use for marching band to protect the Bach.

But if you want the trumpet that sounds the best record and listen, hear what each horn sounds like when you play it, and choose the one that sounds the best. Have a friend play back different tracks , so you will be honest about which horns sound you prefer.

I think that Calicchio trumpets sound the best. Asking what trumpet is the best is like asking what football team is the best, etc....

I like the sound of the King Silver Flairs from the 70's. Again, they are not best suited for lead playing/ trumpet high notes. If you want to play lead jazz , Maynard style, the Holton ST 307 is your safest bet. Amazing is that with a large mp, and some taste and good control, the MF st307 is versatile, and can be used for symphonic band. Of course, the vintage King Silver Flair or the Bach 37 strad would be much better for symphony.

I think that if the ultimate symphonic trumpet sound is what you are looking for, and only what you are looking for, the Yamaha Chicago Hagstrom - Malone (Chris Martin) Symphonic trumpet is an excellent choice, as well as Blackburn.
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcahynuacrkd wrote:
We live in a Bach is King world.

Kids are pressured by band directors and college professors to play a Bach Strad, 37, etc.

If you are a kid, looking for a trumpet to get you past hs and thru college , your safest bet is a Bach Strad, 37.

What trumpet sounds the finest is a mute point in a world that only sees the Bach 37 Strad as having acceptable sound, or the proper sound that blends.

Kids, many of you are on a budget, and many of you are pressured to use Bach. Your safest bet is to buy the Bach 37 , and also an inexpensive good used trumpet like an Olds Ambassador to use for marching band to protect the Bach.

But if you want the trumpet that sounds the best record and listen, hear what each horn sounds like when you play it, and choose the one that sounds the best. Have a friend play back different tracks , so you will be honest about which horns sound you prefer.

I think that Calicchio trumpets sound the best. Asking what trumpet is the best is like asking what football team is the best, etc....

I like the sound of the King Silver Flairs from the 70's. Again, they are not best suited for lead playing/ trumpet high notes. If you want to play lead jazz , Maynard style, the Holton ST 307 is your safest bet. Amazing is that with a large mp, and some taste and good control, the MF st307 is versatile, and can be used for symphonic band. Of course, the vintage King Silver Flair or the Bach 37 strad would be much better for symphony.

I think that if the ultimate symphonic trumpet sound is what you are looking for, and only what you are looking for, the Yamaha Chicago Hagstrom - Malone (Chris Martin) Symphonic trumpet is an excellent choice, as well as Blackburn.



WHAT ? Have you heard Dizzy or John Faddis on a Silver Flair screaming above the staff?
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Trptbenge
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree! The King SIlver Flair was a very versatile horn. I also think it really helps anyone to record themself and hear what the people on the other side of the horn hear. It can often be quite different then what we hear as players.

The other comment in a previous post I need to take issue with is the using a Holton 307 for lead. It is a heavyweight, .468 bore horn that most players would not be able to handle for and extended period of time. A lighter, easier blowing horn would be better for most players. Besides Maynard was not really a "lead player". He didn't play lead when he and Doc played with Charley Barnett or Stan Kenton. After Kenton he started his own band as leader. You would be better off finding an old Connstellation then the Holton. Besides I thought Maynard sounded better on the conn then he ever did on the Holton.

Mike
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eagle362
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mork: I played one of these for years. Pay no attention to the "large" bore size on these, you won't notice it a bit.

However I disagree a bit with some of the comments that is is not suited as a lead horn. Personally, I think it is best as a lead. It can have a very focused bright sound, especially at higher volumes and registers. I also think that if you don't have a naturally full sound that it can be a bit thin when pushed.
I sold mine a few years ago because when I improved as player, the intonation quirks of this horn turned me off. Especially fourth line D, very flat.
I have a friend that still plays one and all in all its fine, but it can stick out a bit at high volumes.
I don't think you'll find much difference in build quality, provided the sn is somewhere below 575,000.
Good luck>
Mark
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tpter1
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a student who has one. She's lead in our jazz band and principal in our symphonic band. She can cut.

I played it and found it much more brilliant than my horn, and not quite as flexible in terms of sound, but still found it a nice horn for its price class. Maybe more than the 5 minutes I spent on it would prove otherwise.
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atsfjohn
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the new UMI Silver Flairs have outstanding intonation, and are wonderful lead trumpets. Like anything else you have to try them; no two horns are the same. My friend/teacher has one that has possibly the best intonation of any trumpet he's ever played--and he has some good ones. And I have played it for a week and can attest his has great intonation.

That MF Horn--the actual model Maynard designed and played and not the one currently available brand new--he has it--but it does take a tremendous amount of air to play and just doesn't sound that good. The .470 Bore French Besson Meha is a better trumpet than any of the MF Horns.

Bore size as measured at the second valve is only part of the equation. The leadpipe and bell tapers have much to do with how a horn responds. Don't be afraid of a trumpet just because it is .462 bore--it could easily provide a bigger, richer tone with more carrying power than the virtually high school standard .459 bore pro trumpets.
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PiCK Kanstul
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atsfjohn wrote:


Two local music stores have reported selling TWICE AS MANY UMI Silver Flairs as Bach Stradivarius trumpets over the last couple years. Many buyers like the sound of the Bach, but for less than half the money are happy to buy a Silver Flair instead (or a Jupiter trumpet).

John


personally i dont' know anyone in this region playing professionally on a King SF. I do know some students who purchased from these stores. Ultimately if they keep playing, they will upgrade or have already and probably buy somewhere else. If the stores are selling that many it's more a testament to the sales force & the market they are dealing with than the fact that the instruments are really that desirable. . . . just my opinion. they lack the resonance and response of better instruments.
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atsfjohn
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the one store reports selling 24 of the Silver Flair in about 2 years--but now folks are buying more Jupiter trumpets instead (that changed within the last year), and as I said, my friend/teacher, Larry Kershishnik, used the Silver Flair as his main axe for 3 years or so--playing professionally on the weekends (with an Altoona-based polka band) and as the lead trumpet for a big band in Lebanon, PA.

I'm located near Harrisburg, so I am speaking about 2 stores near here.

I'd love to have the chance to try some Kanstul trumpets (never have), but one local website was very clearly indicating they are "not accepting new customers". Is that your website???

In the opinion of Forte Music, the SF was selling because though people liked the sound of the Bach Strad, many cannot justify paying that price, and found the SF to be a good horn for the money. They too have sold several of these over the last few years.

I don't find them inferior horns at all--they are ideal horns for lead playing. I almost bought one, but opted for UMI Benge 3X instead. (Forte Music had a deal on new old stock).

John
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PiCK Kanstul
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured you were speaking of Forte and Horn Hospital. I'm familiar with both. Parker was really pushing the Conn horns at one point.

I don't know Larry, but work with a lot of different guys, and have yet to see a King SF in any situation professionally.

yep - our store was open for about 7 years here, you missed the chance. I carried about 40 horns in stock at one point. The fall before I opened, i took about 4 students out shopping locally, and was not too impressed with the selection anywhere.
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atsfjohn
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, neither myself nor Larry is from around here; we are transplants from outside this area. We had to come here to find a decent job in our field--and met at work. At one time we both worked for the DOT; now I'm a consulting engineer. He has been a big help to my trumpet playing...

From what I know of the SF I'm sure there are others using them professionally--but that doesn't mean you would know them. Some people would sound just as good on a SF as on a high dollar instrument...Just because it's not a Bach or Kanstul does not necessarily make it inferior. I happen to prefer it over any Bach I ever tried, but that's just me. I think the mouthpiece choice can have a greater impact than the horn we choose to use. A good mouthpiece can work well on lots of horns.

Up in the northern part of the state where I come from there are people still playing the Holton T101 Symphony model trumpet. They sold a ton of them at one time up there; the price was right and more competitive than Bach. I know people who are still using their T101 20 years later--one is a high school band director. He never saw a need to upgrade his horn. (At least a couple months back R.M. Sides still had the last NOS Holton T-101 in stock.)

John
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DaveH
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moving back in the direction of the original poster's inquiries...

1. The original King Silver Flairs made prior to the UMI takeover of King had a bore size of .462. There were no other variations - they all were .462. I do not think there was any perceived need to offer any other bore size.

2. The inscription on the mouthpiece receiver was originally just "Flair". Both of the Silver Flairs I have owned read simply "Flair". Sometime shortly into the 1970s, I believe, the inscription "Silver Flair" began to appear on the mouthpiece receiver. That is the later inscription of the two.

3. The original, pre UMI Silver Flair, as made to the original design and specs, is a pretty lightweight horn. The bell is very light. This affects the response and sound of the horn more than the bore size, IMO. This horn does not play like a Bach Strad, nor does it have the inherent sound properties of a Strad. I think the original Silver Flair is much more "Benge-like" than "Bach-like" in both sound and playing characteristics (it may even be a bit "Schilke-like"). It has a more open, less resistant blow than a Strad, IMO.

I've played Benge, Bach, and I have a Silver Flair from late 1969/early 1970 at present. I also have a French Besson that plays sort of like a Bach Strad 37. I also had a Silver Flair at one time from early 1966. It played - and looks identical to the one I have at present. But, they were made within about 4 years of each other so I guess that is to be expected.

I have never played a UMI or current production Silver Flair.
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DaveH
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as a follow up to the above, I have tried to figure out what happened to King production volume after 1970.

Does it seem that production escalated a lot after 1970 or so? It seems like serial numbers grew a lot in those years after 1970.

My present Silver Flair serial number is mid 450,000s. I estimate that is late1969/early 1970 based on some of the serial number info out there - does that seem about right? Somewhere, I saw a list of numbers that place 440XXX at the end of 1966, which seems to contradict most of the other lists.

None of these lists claim to be really accurate.
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uglylips
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also own and play a King Silver Flair. Mine is from around 1972. The serial number is 469910. The receiver is engraved only with the word "Flair." It is a lightweight horn with nickel silver inner slide tubes. The sound is much brighter than my Bach Strads. The response and intonation are excellent. I think it is closer to a Schilke than a Benge. It is one of my favorite horns to play. I use it in big band and other jazz groups. It is a great horn with a great sound.

Here's a link to another thread with more info on the Silver Flair:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=84052&highlight=king+silver+flair+replacement

There is a post on the above thread that mentions a player in the Boston Pops that uses a Silver Flair. Keep in mind that one of Dizzy's Silver Flairs that is similar to these early models is now in the Smithsonian.

See: http://www.smithsonianlegacies.si.edu/objectdescription.cfm?ID=264
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thedevilisbad
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

musicmork wrote:
I never knew this until tonight...but apparently from the research I have done on King Silver Flairs...they are all .462 bore. That is a large bore and would be harder to play and fill than the .459 and .460 ML bores that I am used to.
Is there a reason why the Silver Flair's bore is only one size ?
And is it hard to fill for the average player?


I have a King 2000, which is basically the same thing. It's also a .462 bore. It's open but not to much more than a standard Bach 37. It's also the most in tune horn I've ever played for the money (the Custom Larson is the best...ever). They are very bright horns but a blast to play.
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