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Early Monette


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oliver king
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:34 am    Post subject: Early Monette Reply with quote

Does anyone know how the early Monette trumpets (Chicago) compare in blow/weight to the early Portland made horns? Did he always lean to the 'heavier/darker' side of things?
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esuh
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no factual back up to this, but I heard that his first horns were light weight with a lack of bracing and used a getzen valve block. This was previous to the chicago line. It didn't catch on and he switched to heavier weights and sheet bracing. Has anyone else heard this?
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen some of his early horns. They looked like they where put togther by an amature like me! I mean that they did not have a visualy appealing build. The main tuneing slide was ovate or eliptical, the leadpipes looked a bit heavier and so did the reciever. The finish looked raw. The braceing was not at all like it today. Trust me if I gave my son a trumpet that looked like the early Monettes I have seen he would be laughed at his first day of band at his new middle school. I am not saying that they where built poorly or did not sound good only that they where not as refined as his designs today.

I see no real problem with him useing Getzen valve assemblys though since they make the best valves assemblys in the USA. I do not see how any forgien made valves or valves he makes inhis own shop could be any better at what they need to do. We are talking about a trumpet here not a steam line on a nuclear reactor.... Their comes a point of diminishing returns on everything and while youmight be able to improve on it that does notmean that the improvment will make a difference int he end.
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In general, I think those horns lean more to the STC-1 type weight of horns, so slightly heavier than your average horn. All of the ones I've heard haven't been too overwhelmingly dark or anything.

My understanding of why he went with heavier horns for a while was his attempt to get the "thicker" sound with more "core" and he was experimenting on how to maximize those features. Now he's figured out how to do it with his lighter horns too.
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nickpasternack
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience (i have played both a chicago Bb and C before), the early horns were not at all like today's. The early horns were quite bright and did not have the huge sound of the modern prana horns. I agree that they tend to lean more towards the current Stc-1 model. They are very light weight horns, and yes they all had getzen valves. I did not really like either of the two horns enough to buy them. The C had a VERY shrill and biting tone.
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DavesTrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
I have seen some of his early horns. They looked like they where put togther by an amature like me! I mean that they did not have a visualy appealing build. The main tuneing slide was ovate or eliptical, the leadpipes looked a bit heavier and so did the reciever. <SNIP>


The leadpipes were actually lighter weight. Here's a pic from the first Monette catalog:



I'm reading the letter Dave Monette sent me along with the catalog. The price for most models at the time was $1850.

The model MB-149 (pictured above) is described as being "heavier than the previous models, with a very stable response."

Back then, Wynton was playinig the MB-100 model, which was like the 149, but with a darker, thicker sound.

I got to work on Wynton's previous Monette in 1987. (I think it was an MB-149. Anyway, it was a great horn. I got to play on it during an entire lesson with Wynton, while he played my Getzen Severinsen! That's a story for another time!). I also got to play on about three other later horns of his. I always liked the earlier models.

As for the quality of workmanship, the only "rough" thing I ever saw on a Monette was in the late 80s when Wynton played at SMU. His horn then looked like the bell had been heated to the point of making the soldered bead bleed solder onto the bell flare. I didn't care for the way the horn played at all, but Wynton did, and it was his horn, so who cares if I didn't like it?! Other than that, all Monettes I've ever seen were cleanly and precisely made. Newer ones, older ones, they all looked great.

Since I don't really have permission to post this image, and I don't need Monette breathing down my neck, I'll probably remove it soon. Take a quick look before it's gone.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
I have seen some of his early horns. They looked like they where put togther by an amature like me! I mean that they did not have a visualy appealing build. The main tuneing slide was ovate or eliptical, the leadpipes looked a bit heavier and so did the reciever. The finish looked raw. The braceing was not at all like it today. Trust me if I gave my son a trumpet that looked like the early Monettes I have seen he would be laughed at his first day of band at his new middle school. I am not saying that they where built poorly or did not sound good only that they where not as refined as his designs today.

I see no real problem with him useing Getzen valve assemblys though since they make the best valves assemblys in the USA. I do not see how any forgien made valves or valves he makes inhis own shop could be any better at what they need to do. We are talking about a trumpet here not a steam line on a nuclear reactor.... Their comes a point of diminishing returns on everything and while youmight be able to improve on it that does notmean that the improvment will make a difference int he end.


The slides were never ovate on the early horns. They were single radius, and always rounded. The horns were lighter than later instruments, and they played vastly different from anything later. They had a broad, singing tone quality, and a huge sound. I have played 001, 002, 004 and others, and they are certainly different from my "Classic" 149XL I bought new in 2002.

The leadpipe was in fact lighter, as was the horn as a general rule. My "Classic" 149XL has a heavier mouthpiece receiver than did the older horns I played. Unlike the above poster, every Monette I've played from this period was perfectly made. Some of his experimental stuff had some odd solder joints and some solder overflow, but very rarely did that stuff make it out of the shop. Give the man credit for the professional he is....sometimes I wonder about some of the posters on here, and you're heading quickly to the top of the list. I won't sulley the name of James T. Kirk by referring to you with his title.

Additionally, grading any instrument by how it would be received at a junior high band room is an extremely poor test of the quality of an instrument. I know kids who love the rainbow-colored plastic clarinets, and yet they sounded poor at best, and were considered a menace by many of our local middle school directors. Trumpets in rainbow colors as well....hardly a test of the quality.

But, you ideas are definitely rooted in an odd series of perceptions, most of which have no basis in fact. I wish posters would at least have seen a Monette and held it, perhaps even played one for longer than two minutes, before posting on the instruments or the man. But, alas, this is TH.....
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plunkett
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to own a Chicago Monette cornet (in Bb) - all I've got to add is that it was the best instrument I have ever played (except, maybe, my current Calicchio trumpet). The workmanship was superb and the playing was great. I could make it sound like either a trumpet or a cornet with different mouthpieces. I only sold it when funds were short...

Pat
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not talking about the catalog I am talking about ones I saw! That picture looks far too nice. I suspect he only photographed the preety ones and used grainy black and white photo's to hide the awful looking finish! The early ones I ran into where at jazz Festivals like Monterey Jazz festival. Every Year when we lived in the States my Dad took me to that Festival and any other ones that he could make it too. So unless someone bashed the ones I say with ugly sticks I am thinking they represented his products. They where shaped almost exactly like the one you put up fromt he catalog but the leadpipes on the ones I say where a tad heavierlooking then that but still a far cry from how they are today. The finish onthe ones I say was almost a brownish black raw finish and was patchy.

I did not say they where shoty guys read carfuly I said they "looked like" not they where! Big difference their. I must have mixed up my memories of the single radius and the ovate I was a kind after all. I never say one that looked preety though.....In fact they kind of reminded me in some reguards of how Inderbienden(sp) trumpets look.......Some of them look dreadfull even if they play great and are well built and some of his like the Alpha and look rather ordinary.

I still think he builds ungly trumpets even the preetier ones have bodies only a mother could love!!!LOL His top of the line trumpet is the ugliest thing I have seen that is called a trumpet.....It had better sound great between the price and the ugly lines!!

Oh and I did clearly state that they did not look anything like his trumpets today!
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DavesTrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
I am not talking about the catalog I am talking about ones I saw! That picture looks far too nice. I suspect he only photographed the preety ones and used grainy black and white photo's to hide the awful looking finish! The early ones I ran into where at jazz Festivals like Monterey Jazz festival. Every Year when we lived in the States my Dad took me to that Festival and any other ones that he could make it too. So unless someone bashed the ones I say with ugly sticks I am thinking they represented his products. They where shaped almost exactly like the one you put up fromt he catalog but the leadpipes on the ones I say where a tad heavierlooking then that but still a far cry from how they are today. The finish onthe ones I say was almost a brownish black raw finish and was patchy.


John,

The photo was posted as proof that the horns, especially the leadpipes, were lighter in weight. Period, plain and simple.

I've only seen and or played about a dozen or so, so maybe you have more experience with Monettes than me, but I doubt it.

Read carefully? You've got to be kidding. I feel like telling you to "F" off, OK? Why the hell don't you fricking WRITE carefully. Come on, man.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
I did not say they where shoty guys read carfuly I said they "looked like" not they where! Big difference their. I must have mixed up my memories of the single radius and the ovate I was a kind after all. I never say one that looked preety though.....In fact they kind of reminded me in some reguards of how Inderbienden(sp) trumpets look.......Some of them look dreadfull even if they play great and are well built and some of his like the Alpha and look rather ordinary.


You have got to be kidding. Read carefully? I have to translate and re-read everything you write five times to even understand your impossibly poor grammar and incredible lack of clarity. Read the first sentence you wrote above, then get back to us about reading carefully. Until you can write what you are truly trying to say, I think most of us on here are doing our level best to try and understand your poor writing. And you have the gall to call us out on it? You must be joking.

Quote:
I still think he builds ungly trumpets even the preetier ones have bodies only a mother could love!!!LOL His top of the line trumpet is the ugliest thing I have seen that is called a trumpet.....It had better sound great between the price and the ugly lines!!


Preetier? Care to translate? Lack of clarity?

Prettier, perhaps? And, great, you have an opinion. Or, you're just one more Monette basher...??

Quote:
Oh and I did clearly state that they did not look anything like his trumpets today!


Actually, they do. It's pretty obvious if you have REALLY looked at older ones and newer ones who made both. Even on his custom leadpipes made before his instruments, his work is clearly his own. SO, unless you've seen a cache of these horns I've not (and being a Charles Gorham student at IU, a friend of Ed Cord, and having known and worked with literally dozens of Monette Owners in my time), I doubt you've seen more than I have, or anywhere close.

This nonsense has gone on long enough. Find another dead horse to beat.
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gbdeamer
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
I did not say they where shoty guys read carfuly...



I'm speechless on this one...
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
I have seen some of his early horns. They looked like they where put togther by an amature like me! I mean that they did not have a visualy appealing build. The main tuneing slide was ovate or eliptical, the leadpipes looked a bit heavier and so did the reciever. The finish looked raw. The braceing was not at all like it today. Trust me if I gave my son a trumpet that looked like the early Monettes I have seen he would be laughed at his first day of band at his new middle school. I am not saying that they where built poorly or did not sound good only that they where not as refined as his designs today.

I see no real problem with him useing Getzen valve assemblys though since they make the best valves assemblys in the USA. I do not see how any forgien made valves or valves he makes inhis own shop could be any better at what they need to do. We are talking about a trumpet here not a steam line on a nuclear reactor.... Their comes a point of diminishing returns on everything and while youmight be able to improve on it that does notmean that the improvment will make a difference int he end.



Good grief.
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david johnson
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

" know kids who love the rainbow-colored plastic clarinets, and yet they sounded poor at best, and were considered a menace by many of our local middle school directors. "


if they're made by vito, they'll be ok...but they look plain weird when you put those black, top-line mouthpieces on them...better go crystal!

dj
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oliver king
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks much to everyone for your insight and experience.
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk ,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but i don't think I've ever completely understood one of your posts. I'm not a dumb guy and I can understand that you meant to write "were" but wrote "where." But seriously dude, it seems to me that you just type and hit "submit." If I'm wrong and you proofread your posts... then get someone else to do it.

I have nothing against grammar and spelling mistakes, everyone makes them. But you account for 12 people's share of grammar mistakes for a whole month in one 2 run-on-sentence post. Seriously man, if you want people to take your opinions and statements seriously, you should fix it.
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oliver king
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
Capt.Kirk wrote:
I have seen some of his early horns. They looked like they where put togther by an amature like me! I mean that they did not have a visualy appealing build. The main tuneing slide was ovate or eliptical, the leadpipes looked a bit heavier and so did the reciever. The finish looked raw. The braceing was not at all like it today. Trust me if I gave my son a trumpet that looked like the early Monettes I have seen he would be laughed at his first day of band at his new middle school. I am not saying that they where built poorly or did not sound good only that they where not as refined as his designs today.

I see no real problem with him useing Getzen valve assemblys though since they make the best valves assemblys in the USA. I do not see how any forgien made valves or valves he makes inhis own shop could be any better at what they need to do. We are talking about a trumpet here not a steam line on a nuclear reactor.... Their comes a point of diminishing returns on everything and while youmight be able to improve on it that does notmean that the improvment will make a difference int he end.



Good grief.

that's Captain Kirk. I want to say we're proud of him but he's just consistant.
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daDavemeister
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had heard that some or all of Dave's earliest horns played a lot more like conventional horns, and could be played with conventional mouthpieces with good results. I know of one player who uses a Bach mpc on a single digit serial number horn, and I also know that Herseth used his Bach mpcs when he was on his Monette in the CSO.

Then again, maybe the later horns can be played with conventional mouthpieces too, although I never hear of anybody doing it. I did see a picture of David Krauss playing a prana C with what looked like a Bach-type mouthpiece, but that's the only instance I can think of with a modern Portland made Monette.

Capt Kirk,

When did you see one of his "early" horns? I'm thinking that maybe you saw an early 900 series instrument. Is this possible?

At any rate, I think Monette horns are absolutely gorgeous and have nothing against raw finishes.
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Pocket Monkeys
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that's why I'm a fan of Capt. Picard.

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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daDavemeister wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had heard that some or all of Dave's earliest horns played a lot more like conventional horns, and could be played with conventional mouthpieces with good results. I know of one player who uses a Bach mpc on a single digit serial number horn, and I also know that Herseth used his Bach mpcs when he was on his Monette in the CSO.


Absolutely correct. Mr. Herseth liked what he had over what Dave had made for him, and so he played it most of the time.

Quote:

Then again, maybe the later horns can be played with conventional mouthpieces too, although I never hear of anybody doing it. I did see a picture of David Krauss playing a prana C with what looked like a Bach-type mouthpiece, but that's the only instance I can think of with a modern Portland made Monette.


I tried it once with very poor results. Of course, YMMV, but I've never been pleased with the sound of my more modern Monette trumpets with anything but a Monette mouthpiece. On an older instrument I have, all bets are off!!!

Quote:

At any rate, I think Monette horns are absolutely gorgeous and have nothing against raw finishes.


I can understand differences in opinion on this subject, and while I like my Monettes in gold, have been very happy with a raw brass horn for a long, long time in terms of fit, finish, and playing characteristics. And, the raw brass does have a certain charm.

Hope you are well,

AL
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