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goldenhornplayer
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 1123
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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 Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: Tools for PVA |
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| I have been doing PVA's for myself, friends, and associates now for the past year. Now I'm considering doing this commercially which leads to my question; what is a good choice of borescope to use, mainly for smaller brass instruments like trumpets, cornets, flugels, piccs, etc.? I have been successful using a small inspection mirror and LED lighting but it is certainly not the easiest or fastest way to get this done. If you've ever tried it, you will know it's a matter of getting your light and your mirror in the best position to inspect and that takes some time to do right. So, now, I'm looking to make this easier with some type of borescope or inspection camera. Can anyone offer suggestions? Thanks-Ken B. |
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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I'm using this one and really like it a lot (anything better would be at least 10 times more expensive):
http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=jodoqpo8
I still double check with a dentist's mirror (smaller size for children) and a mini Maglite, that I've glued together into one handy mini tool.
If you'd want to make your own water key corks or valve washers (also very thin ones for aligning!), a double hollow punch set might be a great tool for you too.
I've got a similar set to this one, that has all the reasonable sizes one needs for a brass instrument (6mm combined with 14mm cuts trumpet valve washers; 9 or 10mm makes water key corks):
http://www.waresdirect.com/products/Commercial-Products/Mayhew-Tools/16-Pc231353
MvW.
Last edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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goldenhornplayer
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 1123
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | I'm using this one and really like it a lot (anything better would be at least 10 times more expensive):
http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=jodoqpo8
I still double check with a dentist's mirror (smaller size for children) and a mini Maglite, that I've glued together into one handy mini tool. MvW. |
Thanks MvW! That does look like a great option and, as you point out, a very reasonable price as well. Do you use the optional mirror attachment? Thanks again! --Ken B. |
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| goldenhornplayer wrote: | | .....Do you use the optional mirror attachment? Thanks again! --Ken B. |
No, but I'm considering to order one.
It might be handy for checking out water key holes and rotary trumpet vent holes.
You won't be needing it for valve alignment though.
Please be aware that the fiber cable can go through a main tuningslide or bell bend without any problem, but any radius smaller than that will break it.
MvW.
Last edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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goldenhornplayer
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
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Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, I think I get the picture now...you don't use the fiber optic scope in the same way I would use my dentist mirror. With my mirror, I go in from the bottom of the valve casing and look into the cylinder wall ports. Apparently, with the scope, you look through the tubing instead. If you had the optional mirror attachment for your scope, how do you think that would work when used like I'm already using my dentist mirror? See any advantage to that? Thanks-Ken B. |
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, you've got it right.
The scope goes into the bell and you just push it through until it gets to the valves.
At the other end you get rid of the tuning slide or 3rd slide and put the scope's cable into the tube that goes straight towards the valve cluster.
It's a bit of a fuss in the beginning, but the best way is to put the instrument on a table, push the cable through and then look.
The vision is very clear, but if you've played the instrument shortly beforehand the lens will get moist.
A fiber scope is also of GREAT help when checking instruments for solder blobs, rims, (red-)rot or other unwanted "obstacles".
Your way of using it with the morror on the scope's lens and work through the valve case might work as well, but personally I don't really see any advantages doing it that way...
MvW.
Last edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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goldenhornplayer
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
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Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks MvW! This has been very helpful and most instructive. I appreciate your taking the time to help. Very kind! --Ken B. |
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| goldenhornplayer wrote: | | Thanks MvW! This has been very helpful and most instructive. I appreciate your taking the time to help. Very kind! --Ken B. |
You're welcome, Ken.
That's what TH is about.
MvW. |
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Thumper
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yankeesstink
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Location: Acton, Massachusetts
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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precision valve alignment.
_________________
Harrelson Bravura Bb & C Trumpets
Blessing B154-RT Flugelhorn
Yamaha YTR-6810S Piccolo Trumpet
Yamaha YCR-2330 Cornet
1970's Olds Recording Trumpet
Various Olds Ultratone "G" Bugles |
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Shaft
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Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Piston valve alignment I think.
Great links for the tools, thanks for posting.
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ltkije1966
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Disclaimer:
Although I can get pretty close with my home-PVA (vertical alignment only), it's got little to do with how the real guys align your valve cluster. They've got better tools, better washers, better eyes, and far more experience, talent & skill to perform an ultra precise vertical AND horizontal alignment.
In other words: I would call mine "Piston Valve Alignment", but theirs is a "Precision Valve Alignment".
Believe me,
sending an instrument to a specialist for a PVA (or any repair job) is money very well spent.
MvW. |
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goldenhornplayer
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 1123
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | | Disclaimer:Although I can get pretty close with my home-PVA (vertical alignment only), it's got little to do with how the real guys align your valve cluster. They've got better tools, better washers, better eyes, and far more experience, talent & skill to perform an ultra precise vertical AND horizontal alignment. In other words: I would call mine "Piston Valve Alignment", but theirs is a "Precision Valve Alignment". MvW. |
Well said, MvW. I would add another element to your list and that has to do with how much of a perfectionist your technician happens to be. If your technician does not approach this task with perfection in mind, the result will suffer.
While we're discussing precision and perfection, perhaps we should define what precision really means. I'm not at all sure that any of today's PVA experts have quantified that. I think it's fair to say that absolute perfection is something to strive for but will never be realized. One of the problems is that no horn is manufactured perfectly and, as a result, all of the piston ports will never perfectly line up with their corresponding casing ports. Just how close this alignment is varies from one horn to another. Sometimes, you align one set of ports only to realize that the other set of ports on the same valve/casing don't align. Now, what do you do? Actually, there are several possible options to allow for this manufacturing imperfection but it would make this post far too lengthy to go into that. My point is simply illustrated by this question; at what degree of precision can you no longer detect any change in how the instrument responds? I cannot scientifically answer that question but I seriously doubt that precision better than 0.005" gets you any further noticeable improvement. I have seen horns with as much as 1/8" (0.125") of misalignment. So, believe me, if you can reduce that to 0.005", you really should notice a difference.
Finally, it's impressive to me just how accurately the human eye can detect error. This is especially true when one is simply attempting to align two surfaces. If one is this "perfectionist" I spoke of earlier, this alignment by eye can be done very accurately, certainly down to just a few thousandths. The issue, and the reason I began this thread on PVA Tools, is what equipment can be best used to "see". Obviously, if you can't see well, there is no hope of obtaining a high degree of precision. So, with that in mind, thanks again to MvW for his excellent suggestion on scopes. --Ken B. |
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