Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:12 pm Post subject: student playing to one side
I am seeking advice from trumpet teachers who have had a student with this problem or perhaps someone who has gone through it themselves. One of my students, a 13 yr old, is playing way off to the side of his mouth. It started last year with him playing slightly off-center and I didn't say anything about it because I figured plenty of successful players play this way. But this year he came back from a week long band camp and he was playing so far off to the right you could only just see the corner of his mouth.
I talked with him about changing it back to the center and he agreed to give it ago. I told him to practice in front of a mirror, a few minutes of mouthpiece buzzing, then long tones on the trumpet starting in the lower register slowly ascending. He finds as he ascends the mouthpiece slides over to the right. Nothing in his dental structure appears to give a reason for this.
He is a good player that I have been teaching for 2 years and he is conscientious. However, he is getting demoralized with his lack of progress, as you might expect, a change like this could take a few months. Any advice or suggestions on this situation greatly appreciated! _________________ Cannonball 789RL
KMI Golden Flair
Conn Director Coprion Bell
Besson Sovereign Flugel
www.jazzinspired.blogspot.com
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: student playing to one side
brassjunkie wrote:
I am seeking advice from trumpet teachers who have had a student with this problem or perhaps someone who has gone through it themselves. One of my students, a 13 yr old, is playing way off to the side of his mouth. It started last year with him playing slightly off-center and I didn't say anything about it because I figured plenty of successful players play this way. But this year he came back from a week long band camp and he was playing so far off to the right you could only just see the corner of his mouth.
I talked with him about changing it back to the center and he agreed to give it ago. I told him to practice in front of a mirror, a few minutes of mouthpiece buzzing, then long tones on the trumpet starting in the lower register slowly ascending. He finds as he ascends the mouthpiece slides over to the right. Nothing in his dental structure appears to give a reason for this.
He is a good player that I have been teaching for 2 years and he is conscientious. However, he is getting demoralized with his lack of progress, as you might expect, a change like this could take a few months. Any advice or suggestions on this situation greatly appreciated!
i'm not a pedagogue, so take this with a grain of salt, but i have seen very good players that play wayyyy off to the side, as much as almost an inch from center
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 1104 Location: Baltimore, MD
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject:
I play off to the left side, not center at all.. My teeth and jaw dictates this..
I get a very good sound in the normal playing range, and even to the extreme upper regester, UNTIL I try to make it look pretty, and move towards the center.
I need to play off center, and your student may very well have to, also. However, you hear and see him, I don't... but what helped me when I started out years ago, was when my instructor saw the even more severe angle to the left I had, his suggestion was " Raise the left elbow, it's darn near touching your ribs!"..
It made me play better, and moved it a bit more to center. That was making me pull the horn hard left and down.
Take a look at your guy, and just see if his right arm/elbow is way down.
Just a thought based on my experience..
thanks for the comments. I will checkout what his elbows are doing. Always a tricky decision to recommend an embouchure change and then its hard work to achieve it. However, a colleague of mine reminded me that I went through two embouchure changes as a student.....once getting braces on and once getting them off. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
KMI Golden Flair
Conn Director Coprion Bell
Besson Sovereign Flugel
www.jazzinspired.blogspot.com
Test # 1. Does he sound bad?
If no, disregard physical appearance.
Test # 2. Is his endurance AWFUL?
If no, disregard physical appearance.
If the answer is yes, esp to question #2, then the guy needs to change. How you go about changing his embouchure will dictate if his range is cut in half or not. If you insist on a direct embouchure change, he WILL experience a major reduction in range for about 4 months. My advice would be to prescribe exercises that encourage efficient playing. There are tons out there.
If you do the latter, then he will be much less dejected, because his range and endurance will not suffer nearly as much as a direct embouchure change.
If I'd known that back in high school, I'd be a half a year further along my chop development right now. _________________ "Never practice, always perform."
-Adolf Herseth
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: student playing to one side
brassjunkie wrote:
I am seeking advice from trumpet teachers who have had a student with this problem or perhaps someone who has gone through it themselves. One of my students, a 13 yr old, is playing way off to the side of his mouth. It started last year with him playing slightly off-center and I didn't say anything about it because I figured plenty of successful players play this way. But this year he came back from a week long band camp and he was playing so far off to the right you could only just see the corner of his mouth.
I talked with him about changing it back to the center and he agreed to give it ago. I told him to practice in front of a mirror, a few minutes of mouthpiece buzzing, then long tones on the trumpet starting in the lower register slowly ascending. He finds as he ascends the mouthpiece slides over to the right. Nothing in his dental structure appears to give a reason for this.
He is a good player that I have been teaching for 2 years and he is conscientious. However, he is getting demoralized with his lack of progress, as you might expect, a change like this could take a few months. Any advice or suggestions on this situation greatly appreciated!
As often happens here we see a condition but not necessarily a problem;
"He plays way off to the side"
"He wears brown shoes instead of black"
Both state a condition but not a problem.
There can be plenty of supple upper lip flesh to sustain a good tone with endurance even off towards the side of the mouth. the air will flow just as easily out the side as the front.
I believe that some players use the side of the mouth because it is easier to control a smaller aperture for higher notes.
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2154 Location: Little Elm, TX
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject:
I've played off center for over forty years. Has it been a hindrance? Maybe, but it's the only way I could make it work--and with enough practice, I have made it work well. _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: student playing to one side
This is impossible to give any solid answers without seeing him play but I hope you may get a few ideas from my post and the other posts in this thread.
brassjunkie wrote:
But this year he came back from a week long band camp and he was playing so far off to the right you could only just see the corner of his mouth.
In this band camp was he expected to play higher than normal? Sometimes camps with long playing days can push the student into habits that may be un-productive.
brassjunkie wrote:
He finds as he ascends the mouthpiece slides over to the right.
For my way of thinking, this sentence is the key. It sounds like he could be sliding over to the side to get less meat in the mouthpiece to help in the upper register (smaller buzz area). Same thing can happen with students who play in the red and slide the mouthpiece down. In this way playing to the side isn't a problem but a symptom. The problem is an inability to create compression (lip to lip).
To solve this I would look into researching The Balanced Embouchure, (not just the roll in stuff but the whole package). That would be my first recommendation as that is what I have done for own playing and my students.
The second area of possibility (that I know considerably less about) would be to look into the Donald Reinhardt method. I know his students put a lot of emphasis on compression, so that would be something else to investigate.
Of courses, if you conclude that compression is not the problem then this post is pointless (but hopefully helpful for someone else) but that is the limitation of posting solutions without see him play.
Alistair. _________________ Come check out my trumpet blog at www.trumpetconnections.com where I do videos and blog posts of my journey as I develop as a trumpet player, as well as sharing my knowledge of all things trumpet.
Lastest post - www.trumpetconnections.com/2018-goals/
Last edited by Dizzy1312 on Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
I play off center and the only thing that's hindered me is lack of time for practicing and lessons.
Ask him where he thinks center is. Ask him where the most comfortable place on his chops to play is. The mirror thing is what I had to do, I listened to what sounded the best, combined with what felt the best, and that's how I found the best spot for me. I also have crooked front teeth that come to a point which makes me place off center. _________________ Do or do not, there is no try.
David Koch Custom 1958 Olds Ambassador
1951 Conn 80A
A lot of other crap.
Couple of good shots. I always think its interesting to watch him. There is a shot at around 0:25.
And then to 1:03 and watch the principal trumpet player for about 30 seconds, its pretty far off to the side.
Not for or against anything without hearing him, but I like the advice given by butxifxnot
thanks for the thoughts. Alistair I think you make some good points. I am pretty sure he could have been pushed to play higher than he was used to at the band camp, and on tired chops, so that could have exacerbated the situation. Interesting video of the Berliner Philharmonic principal trumpet player, that is certainly a fair way off center. My student is more extreme than that again. I guess the fact that he played very well for 2 years in a much more centered position makes me think that less than desirable change has taken place, one that is worth improving on, but time will tell. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
KMI Golden Flair
Conn Director Coprion Bell
Besson Sovereign Flugel
www.jazzinspired.blogspot.com
A change after 2 years or so may be difficult, but it is certainly acheivable if the student has the desire to make it work. I play pretty far off to the right as well. After playing for 9 years, it seems completely ridiculous at an attempt to change. I've made some effort at establishing a centered embouchure (while still keeping my current), but it feels extremely awkward when placed directly in the center, and I can't do many of the things I can with my normal setting. Although I get a really full, open, resonant sound with the centered embouchure, I can barely play a G ontop of the staff with it centered. I don't really know why my low register sounds so good while having my embouchure in the center (Any thoughts?). So, in the end, while I think that my off-center embouchure might create some endurance issues, I have stayed there because that's where I have learned and played so long.
I think the reason for me starting to play off-center is just that I didn't know I was putting the mouthpiece off-center when I started playing. I thoght it was in the center. It wasn't until high school that I noticed in the mirror how far I played off-center. With the trumpet, the mouthpiece is on the right side of the horn. So maybe looking at the trumpet while playing it made me try to play at a weird angle, so that it looked like I was blowing into the center of the horn. If I try now (and I have tried) to place the mouthpiece directly in the center of my lips and have the bell straight forward, it feels very awkward, and the only way I can tell if my mouthpiece is in the center is if I look in a mirror, or put the mouthpiece by the tip of my nose and then drag it straight down onto my lips.
Interesting post, Tim. My student describes similar issues to you. When he plays to the side he gets more range but his endurance suffers. He does get a good sound when he plays more centered (more lip tissue vibrating?). He also says the only way he realises he is playing way off center is using a mirror.
I noticed in his lesson with me today that his mouthpiece is quite large compared to the horizontal size of his mouth (he is only 13) and it only takes a small movement to play slightly off-center. When he needs to go high the mouthpiece slides further round to the right till the right hand corner of his mouth disappears entirely. Both he and I agree this position is probably less than ideal. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
KMI Golden Flair
Conn Director Coprion Bell
Besson Sovereign Flugel
www.jazzinspired.blogspot.com
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:20 am Post subject:
It could be that the student is pivoting off to the side to compensate for some weakness.....Give him some lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing and possibly the Caruso six notes and see if the problem corrects itself
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:27 am Post subject:
99% of the students I see who play off center are to the right. They are centering the bell of the horn in relation to their nose. _________________ Bill Bergren
But yes, I know of very few trumpet players who play dead center. I certainly don't. _________________ "Never practice, always perform."
-Adolf Herseth
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