View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
|
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
bg wrote: | I guess so, but I still don't want to push my valves all the way down. |
Where is your valve position when you play any valved note, say an A on the staff, and hold it for say, three measures? Do you partial valve them to a sweet spot that you feel from knowing the horn? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1804 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
|
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For an assortment of felts - check
www.jlsmithco.com
Check the Supplies, Brasswind, Valve Washer section for felts and alignment shims.
For valve mirrors ask your repair rep to order you the T1787 LIGHTED valve mirror from the Allied Supply parts catalog. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 1292 Location: boulder, colorado
|
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When I'm holding a note, they're all the way down. It's when I'm playing
fast that I cheat a bit; I get them most of the way down, but not really
"hammering" a la Doc Severinsen.
BTW< I do align the down position, but, I don't feel it makes as much of a difference to the response of the horn as the Up position alignment. Maybe
it's because most fingering combinations have an Up valve in them, I don't know.
I own about 70 B flat trpts. The first thing I do when I get one is an alignment; before I remove dents or deal with soldering fixes. This is the only way I can tell if the horn will be a real player, or not. To me, an Up position alignment is the most important external fix I can do. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
_Daff Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2003 Posts: 1431
|
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
bg wrote: | To me, an Up position alignment is the most important external fix I can do. | Brad, I have had the same results. Has been as simple as changing them all in 1/64" increments, (sans the micrometer), until it simply feels good.
The reason I asked about the partial valving is that I know a guy that sweet-spots his third valve on long notes. Helluva player, so who's going to argue with that?
(Hey Andy, thanks for the links). |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jvand678 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 809 Location: TX
|
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What sizes are you guys using for an assortment set to align your horns, Bach, Yamaha, and Schilke specifically? I would assume that you would need an assortment of 1/16, 3/64, 1/32/, 1/64 thicknesses for the stem cork and .0075, .001, .002 etc for the shims as well. I noticed that J.L. Smith had several different sizes for the shims. What size shims do you get? The 9/16" X 13/64",17/32" X 3/16", or the 9/16" X 5/32" ?
thanks for the great thread that can be a nice quick quick fix until I can get the horns in to someone more skilled
JV |
|
Back to top |
|
|
herpderp Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2009 Posts: 140
|
Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
UPDATE!
Flip did a great job doing the old 3610z~ I can't say enough good things about him.
I just traded that horn and was able to aquire an Olds Recording, so here is a chance for me to be able to do it myself with your help.
I got some shims, washers, etc from J.L. Smith and Co, as well as a valve mirror, and a really accurate caliper. The down stroke on this horn with the replacement felts is pretty damn close. The upstroke needed a few tweaks and its good too! I know I am nowhere near the .001', but I am pretty damn close. Probably within .01 to .007, because of measurement error etc. Thanks for all the help, and you guys are great.
I have some felts left over, does anyone want to send their horn over for an alignment? Just pay for shipping! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tal Katz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 781 Location: Israel
|
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey guys,
There's some great info here. I was wondering what kind of dental mirror you got. I got one on eBay but it's too big :/ I can't fit it in the valve case. Can someone link me to a dental mirror that'll fit? _________________ You are what you practice. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Maarten van Weverwijk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3377
|
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Tal Katz wrote: | Hey guys,
There's some great info here. I was wondering what kind of dental mirror you got. I got one on eBay but it's too big :/ I can't fit it in the valve case. Can someone link me to a dental mirror that'll fit? |
Yes, the normal size won't get you anywhere.
I got mine from my dentist; ask for a specific mirror for children.
If you're not on speaking terms with your dentist and prefer to spend the money rather than to ask hím a favor (LOL), Ferree's tools sells them for around $15, product #E17.
MvW. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tal Katz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 781 Location: Israel
|
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | Tal Katz wrote: | Hey guys,
There's some great info here. I was wondering what kind of dental mirror you got. I got one on eBay but it's too big :/ I can't fit it in the valve case. Can someone link me to a dental mirror that'll fit? |
Yes, the normal size won't get you anywhere.
I got mine from my dentist; ask for a specific mirror for children.
If you're not on speaking terms with your dentist and prefer to spend the money rather than to ask hím a favor (LOL), Ferree's tools sells them for around $15, product #E17.
MvW. |
LOL, Thanks Maarten!
Actually, I hate going to the dentist But I have to soon, because I gotta get those wisdom teeth out before it's too late... The guy I go to is actually a cool dude, so I'll ask him about that mirror _________________ You are what you practice. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Maarten van Weverwijk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3377
|
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Tal Katz wrote: | Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | ...If you're not on speaking terms with your dentist... |
...I gotta get those wisdom teeth out before it's too late... |
Hmm, I guess you won't be on speaking terms with anyone at all for quite a while after that...
Take care!
MvW. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6159
|
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tal Katz wrote: | Hey guys,
There's some great info here. I was wondering what kind of dental mirror you got. I got one on eBay but it's too big :/ I can't fit it in the valve case. Can someone link me to a dental mirror that'll fit? |
The mirror will fit a tuba just fine, so don't throw it away just yet. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Billy Bates New Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2013 Posts: 1
|
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
bg wrote: | You'll need a Cheap led flashlight and a small dental mirror.
After that, get some rubber "felts" from your local repairman, they come in various thicknesses. (did I make that word up?)Get three or four of each thickness he/she has in stock.
For the UP position alignment:
1. Remove the third valve slide. Remove the 2nd and 3rd valves. Now, Shine the flashlight into the lower third valve tube. Looking in, you can line up the
"UP" position of the first valve hole with the port between the 1st and 2nd casings.
2. Insert the 2nd valve and repeat the procedure.
3. Remove the 2nd valve AND the 2nd valve slide. Insert the 3rd valve back into the horn. Now, insert the dental mirror into the empty 2nd valve casing.
Position the mirror so; looking through the second valve tube w/ your flashlight, you can see the third valve hole lining up with the port between
2 & 3 in the mirror.
4. If your "felts" aren't thin enough to get the exact alignment, you can make some very thin shims by cutting a felt shaped disc out of thin pieces of plastic . (i.e. a photo album cover)
I hope this makes sense to you. Good luck. A well aligned horn is a great aid to the joy of playing.
Brad Goode |
Thanks dude for nice posting. But is it necessary to have a flashlight and a small dental mirror? Clear me please.
Last edited by Billy Bates on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Adam V Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2008 Posts: 1765 Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Not a DIY job. Port prioritization is key, and that comes from years and years of trial-and-error (Bob Reeves). _________________ 1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel
Marcinkiewicz E3/3C |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 1292 Location: boulder, colorado
|
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
"Port priortization" is subjective; it depends upon the opinion of the person doing the choosing, and what feels optimum to them. True alignment is objective, and is simply based on measurement.
When a horn is structurally flawed, having a valve which will not line up perfectly with the inflow port and the outflow port simultaneously, a choice must be made by the player. If you trust someone else to make that choice for you, that's fine. Just don't suggest that this is science. It is only educated guessing based on subjective feel of the player. _________________ Brad Goode
www.bradgoode.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Adam V Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2008 Posts: 1765 Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
True, but Bob's suggested feel comes from more experience than we can ever imagine. Sure, you can do it yourself. That's fine, as long as everything works out and you're happy. If something still doesn't feel right, it's best left to somebody like Bob.
I've played horns that have been "aligned" by certain smaller shops around the country, and boy are they off... HUGE difference in sound and blow between valve combinations. _________________ 1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel
Marcinkiewicz E3/3C |
|
Back to top |
|
|
laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
|
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
A valve alignment is rather easy to perform with the right tools, and it's quite fun and instructive.
And if you do it the right way (ie replacing the existing pads but NOT altering them! ), it's totally and quickly reversible! _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
|
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Adam V wrote:
Quote: | Not a DIY job. Port prioritization is key, and that comes from years and years of trial-and-error (Bob Reeves). |
Are you suggesting that manufacturers are building valve sections where the valve ports don't line up with the slides?
bg wrote:
Quote: | When a horn is structurally flawed, having a valve which will not line up perfectly with the inflow port and the outflow port simultaneously, a choice must be made by the player. |
Maybe the choice should be a better horn? _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2641 Location: vista ca
|
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have always thought that the best alignments are done by aligning the CENTER of the ports, not the edges. When you go by the edges all kinds of things can happen:
1) the edges can be beveled on the piston which is pretty common, making it hard to visually get a handle on how the circles are lining up.
2) many horns have piston ports that are not the same size as the tubing port. That means if you line up one of the edges, you are off on the other side (top/bottom edges)
3) measuring from the edges does is not better than visually lining them up, for the same basic reasons, that being that where the edge lies sometimes tells you the wrong thing.
If you have a tool that finds the exact center of the ports (a cone fixed at a 90 degree angle to a stick going up thru the hole in the top cap with a surface that find the location of the bottom surface of the cap, and also the surface of the top bumpers) you can easily find the thickness of material need to get the centers of the ports aligned. It's better if you can alter the cap, stem or buttons so that one thickness of felt is used in all three valves. That is what some people do.
A tool like that is pretty easy to make. It's harder to get set up to machine the caps and buttons etc, but that is an extra that you don't really need.
The mirror and light is still a good way to do it though, and gets you to with .005 pretty quick, as long as there are no edge issues. That is basically good enough. Every trumpet player can do it at home. It's way easier than learning a scale for instance. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 1292 Location: boulder, colorado
|
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Doug,
That sounds REALLY cool, and I would love to learn that system or have such a tool as the one you've described.
However, I do think that edges need to be considered in the alignment process, especially if the outer edge of a valve port is visible above or below the edge of the casing port, as this situation creates an unwanted turbulence,
and essentially changes the bore size of the instrument at that point.
I've seen horns, (like some Benges,) on which the valve ports are smaller than the the casing ports, or vice versa, and in these circumstances, it seems your method would be the best. _________________ Brad Goode
www.bradgoode.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2641 Location: vista ca
|
Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes benges are the most common horn that has the ports different diameters.
I'm going to make another of those tools soon and might make few to give out. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|