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Valve alignment at home?


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_Daff
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
I guess so, but I still don't want to push my valves all the way down.

Where is your valve position when you play any valved note, say an A on the staff, and hold it for say, three measures? Do you partial valve them to a sweet spot that you feel from knowing the horn?
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For an assortment of felts - check
www.jlsmithco.com
Check the Supplies, Brasswind, Valve Washer section for felts and alignment shims.

For valve mirrors ask your repair rep to order you the T1787 LIGHTED valve mirror from the Allied Supply parts catalog.
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bg
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I'm holding a note, they're all the way down. It's when I'm playing
fast that I cheat a bit; I get them most of the way down, but not really
"hammering" a la Doc Severinsen.

BTW< I do align the down position, but, I don't feel it makes as much of a difference to the response of the horn as the Up position alignment. Maybe
it's because most fingering combinations have an Up valve in them, I don't know.

I own about 70 B flat trpts. The first thing I do when I get one is an alignment; before I remove dents or deal with soldering fixes. This is the only way I can tell if the horn will be a real player, or not. To me, an Up position alignment is the most important external fix I can do.
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_Daff
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
To me, an Up position alignment is the most important external fix I can do.
Brad, I have had the same results. Has been as simple as changing them all in 1/64" increments, (sans the micrometer), until it simply feels good.

The reason I asked about the partial valving is that I know a guy that sweet-spots his third valve on long notes. Helluva player, so who's going to argue with that?

(Hey Andy, thanks for the links).
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jvand678
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What sizes are you guys using for an assortment set to align your horns, Bach, Yamaha, and Schilke specifically? I would assume that you would need an assortment of 1/16, 3/64, 1/32/, 1/64 thicknesses for the stem cork and .0075, .001, .002 etc for the shims as well. I noticed that J.L. Smith had several different sizes for the shims. What size shims do you get? The 9/16" X 13/64",17/32" X 3/16", or the 9/16" X 5/32" ?

thanks for the great thread that can be a nice quick quick fix until I can get the horns in to someone more skilled

JV
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herpderp
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPDATE!
Flip did a great job doing the old 3610z~ I can't say enough good things about him.

I just traded that horn and was able to aquire an Olds Recording, so here is a chance for me to be able to do it myself with your help.

I got some shims, washers, etc from J.L. Smith and Co, as well as a valve mirror, and a really accurate caliper. The down stroke on this horn with the replacement felts is pretty damn close. The upstroke needed a few tweaks and its good too! I know I am nowhere near the .001', but I am pretty damn close. Probably within .01 to .007, because of measurement error etc. Thanks for all the help, and you guys are great.

I have some felts left over, does anyone want to send their horn over for an alignment? Just pay for shipping!
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Tal Katz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys,
There's some great info here. I was wondering what kind of dental mirror you got. I got one on eBay but it's too big :/ I can't fit it in the valve case. Can someone link me to a dental mirror that'll fit?
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tal Katz wrote:
Hey guys,
There's some great info here. I was wondering what kind of dental mirror you got. I got one on eBay but it's too big :/ I can't fit it in the valve case. Can someone link me to a dental mirror that'll fit?

Yes, the normal size won't get you anywhere.
I got mine from my dentist; ask for a specific mirror for children.
If you're not on speaking terms with your dentist and prefer to spend the money rather than to ask hím a favor (LOL), Ferree's tools sells them for around $15, product #E17.

MvW.
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Tal Katz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
Tal Katz wrote:
Hey guys,
There's some great info here. I was wondering what kind of dental mirror you got. I got one on eBay but it's too big :/ I can't fit it in the valve case. Can someone link me to a dental mirror that'll fit?

Yes, the normal size won't get you anywhere.
I got mine from my dentist; ask for a specific mirror for children.
If you're not on speaking terms with your dentist and prefer to spend the money rather than to ask hím a favor (LOL), Ferree's tools sells them for around $15, product #E17.

MvW.


LOL, Thanks Maarten!
Actually, I hate going to the dentist But I have to soon, because I gotta get those wisdom teeth out before it's too late... The guy I go to is actually a cool dude, so I'll ask him about that mirror
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tal Katz wrote:
Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
...If you're not on speaking terms with your dentist...

...I gotta get those wisdom teeth out before it's too late...

Hmm, I guess you won't be on speaking terms with anyone at all for quite a while after that...

Take care!
MvW.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tal Katz wrote:
Hey guys,
There's some great info here. I was wondering what kind of dental mirror you got. I got one on eBay but it's too big :/ I can't fit it in the valve case. Can someone link me to a dental mirror that'll fit?


The mirror will fit a tuba just fine, so don't throw it away just yet.
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Billy Bates
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Joined: 15 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
You'll need a Cheap led flashlight and a small dental mirror.

After that, get some rubber "felts" from your local repairman, they come in various thicknesses. (did I make that word up?)Get three or four of each thickness he/she has in stock.


For the UP position alignment:

1. Remove the third valve slide. Remove the 2nd and 3rd valves. Now, Shine the flashlight into the lower third valve tube. Looking in, you can line up the
"UP" position of the first valve hole with the port between the 1st and 2nd casings.

2. Insert the 2nd valve and repeat the procedure.

3. Remove the 2nd valve AND the 2nd valve slide. Insert the 3rd valve back into the horn. Now, insert the dental mirror into the empty 2nd valve casing.

Position the mirror so; looking through the second valve tube w/ your flashlight, you can see the third valve hole lining up with the port between
2 & 3 in the mirror.

4. If your "felts" aren't thin enough to get the exact alignment, you can make some very thin shims by cutting a felt shaped disc out of thin pieces of plastic . (i.e. a photo album cover)

I hope this makes sense to you. Good luck. A well aligned horn is a great aid to the joy of playing.

Brad Goode

Thanks dude for nice posting. But is it necessary to have a flashlight and a small dental mirror? Clear me please.


Last edited by Billy Bates on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a DIY job. Port prioritization is key, and that comes from years and years of trial-and-error (Bob Reeves).
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bg
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Port priortization" is subjective; it depends upon the opinion of the person doing the choosing, and what feels optimum to them. True alignment is objective, and is simply based on measurement.

When a horn is structurally flawed, having a valve which will not line up perfectly with the inflow port and the outflow port simultaneously, a choice must be made by the player. If you trust someone else to make that choice for you, that's fine. Just don't suggest that this is science. It is only educated guessing based on subjective feel of the player.
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, but Bob's suggested feel comes from more experience than we can ever imagine. Sure, you can do it yourself. That's fine, as long as everything works out and you're happy. If something still doesn't feel right, it's best left to somebody like Bob.

I've played horns that have been "aligned" by certain smaller shops around the country, and boy are they off... HUGE difference in sound and blow between valve combinations.
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laurent
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A valve alignment is rather easy to perform with the right tools, and it's quite fun and instructive.
And if you do it the right way (ie replacing the existing pads but NOT altering them! ), it's totally and quickly reversible!
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam V wrote:
Quote:
Not a DIY job. Port prioritization is key, and that comes from years and years of trial-and-error (Bob Reeves).

Are you suggesting that manufacturers are building valve sections where the valve ports don't line up with the slides?

bg wrote:
Quote:
When a horn is structurally flawed, having a valve which will not line up perfectly with the inflow port and the outflow port simultaneously, a choice must be made by the player.

Maybe the choice should be a better horn?
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always thought that the best alignments are done by aligning the CENTER of the ports, not the edges. When you go by the edges all kinds of things can happen:

1) the edges can be beveled on the piston which is pretty common, making it hard to visually get a handle on how the circles are lining up.
2) many horns have piston ports that are not the same size as the tubing port. That means if you line up one of the edges, you are off on the other side (top/bottom edges)
3) measuring from the edges does is not better than visually lining them up, for the same basic reasons, that being that where the edge lies sometimes tells you the wrong thing.

If you have a tool that finds the exact center of the ports (a cone fixed at a 90 degree angle to a stick going up thru the hole in the top cap with a surface that find the location of the bottom surface of the cap, and also the surface of the top bumpers) you can easily find the thickness of material need to get the centers of the ports aligned. It's better if you can alter the cap, stem or buttons so that one thickness of felt is used in all three valves. That is what some people do.

A tool like that is pretty easy to make. It's harder to get set up to machine the caps and buttons etc, but that is an extra that you don't really need.

The mirror and light is still a good way to do it though, and gets you to with .005 pretty quick, as long as there are no edge issues. That is basically good enough. Every trumpet player can do it at home. It's way easier than learning a scale for instance.
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bg
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Doug,

That sounds REALLY cool, and I would love to learn that system or have such a tool as the one you've described.

However, I do think that edges need to be considered in the alignment process, especially if the outer edge of a valve port is visible above or below the edge of the casing port, as this situation creates an unwanted turbulence,
and essentially changes the bore size of the instrument at that point.

I've seen horns, (like some Benges,) on which the valve ports are smaller than the the casing ports, or vice versa, and in these circumstances, it seems your method would be the best.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes benges are the most common horn that has the ports different diameters.
I'm going to make another of those tools soon and might make few to give out.
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