Joined: 20 Jan 2007 Posts: 1191 Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject:
Just to add a little positivity to this thread (since I started it ) last night I went out and saw Jacob Duncan's trio (he's an amazing local alto player) at a local pub called the Nachbar. This band is a piano-less group (alto,bass,drums) and they were playing some pretty weird/out stuff. Anyways the club was packed and everyone was there to LISTEN! It was beautiful, everybody was shouting and cheering on the soloists (reminded me of the live Freddie Hubbard album "Jam Gems: Live at the Left Bank"). Most of these people were young (18-30) non-musician artsy types. Everybody really loved the music and it was a wonderful thing to witness. _________________ "Run towards your problems, not from them"
Powell Custom Trumpet
1956 Martin Committee Deluxe
1950/60's Couesnon Monopole Flugel
Aha... I should probably add the assumptions that
each of 1-7 requires certain amount of available time, and each of 1-7 requires a certain amount of drive/will. That a sufficient number of venues exists is a given, or obviously one would move to a different location if their goal was to be a paid performer.
You are correct that a person's willpower and available time might not be equal to junkyt's.
Edit: P.S. Did the above framed argument seem like I have had no training in the classics or logic or philosophy?
Hmm... given that background I'm rather surprised you can't recognize a generalization and all the unfounded premises upon which it is built, though you did manage to spot a few of them.
Continuing... that a certain number of venues exists is NOT a given, unless the *you* referenced by junkyt is willing to be paid in theoretical dollars. I'm not. If you are, I've got all the gigs you want.
Gigs don't magically double just because musicians want them to. If they did, we'd all be overbooked.
Move to another town? That won't magically create more gigs or all musicians would have to do to fix the problem is MOVE!!! LOL. Even the drummers I know would have figured that one out long ago.
Moving won't create more business. So if you, I or anyone else with junkyt's skill set moves to j-town, junkyt may just find his business cut in half. Or worse. In fact, if just one j-town club closes or changes formats junkyt himself may not be "making a living" much longer.
Oh, we can all get more gigs through better marketing, but gigs don't multiply or we'd all be overbooked. See above. This is largely a zero-sum game. Scratch that. Over recent history it's more a declining balance game.
Sorry, kids. Logic says: "I can do it so *you* can do it, too" just doesn't hold water. Game over and thanks for playing. _________________ Ahh... that old case smell.
Thanks MikeyMike and ConnArtist for entertainment.
All I was trying to say is that if one has the skills, the drive, the perseverance, the attitude and the desire, there is no reason why one can't find gigs and make money.
I find all the whining musicians do about no jobs, no respect and no opportunity to be a lazy way out. I don't mean that to sound harsh, just stating my opinion.
All the WORKING musicians I know have all of the qualities I spoke of in my previous post. I see no reason why MikeyMike, ConnArtist and anyone else can not cultivate these qualities as well.
And come on and move to j-town! There's plenty of work for all of us! _________________ Check out my new blog about the life of a working musician: OneWorkingMusician.com
I agree with Jason. ALL of the people I know that complain about not working are just plain LAZY. They sit by the phone and wait for the gigs to roll in. Let me clue you in on a secret. You might be the baddest mofo in town, but if you don't get out to sessions, try to sit in on people gig's, have some kind of website, etc. etc. etc...you will not work. PERIOD.
I live in MI (horrible economy, as most of you know) and I'm working atleast 15 nights a month, with more coming in for the fall, and I'm relatively new to the area. YOU MUST GET OFF YOU BUTT AND MAKE CONNECTIONS.
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:39 am Post subject:
Snipping this out of many excellent points in that 1 post to ask a question:
bg wrote:
Now, the clubs are booked by business people, and they are looking for a way to get bands for free. They want the musician to do his/her own advertising via email, facebook, TRUMPET HERALD, etc. The musician notifies his "following" (translation: friends, family, students, teachers) and charges them a cover.
I know this is how it's been in NYC and LA for quite some time now, but it's not like that here. Is your home State like that?
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1605 Location: Clarksville, Tn
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:44 am Post subject:
bg wrote:
Now, the clubs are booked by business people, and they are looking for a way to get bands for free. They want the musician to do his/her own advertising via email, facebook, TRUMPET HERALD, etc. The musician notifies his "following" (translation: friends, family, students, teachers) and charges them a cover.
I know this is how it's been in NYC and LA for quite some time now, but it's not like that here. Is your home State like that?[/quote]
It is exactly like that in Nashville. I've been asked a couple of times to play the Gibson Guitar Showcase. they don't pay a cent. You get "exposure". Also downtown, you can play for tips. You get "exposure". You can die from "exposure". _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
This is so sad but true, many times , even sometimes more often than not, people expect horn players to play for free. This eventually leads to horns players playing for free, or even not playing at all. Can someone seriously expect a trumpet player to show up with 2-10+ grand worth of horns to play for free?
Ugh... _________________ Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord
We've all heard the expression "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free", right? Well, why would a bar owner pay a musician to play when he can find 10 other musicians who'll do it for free? He won't. That's the reality of the situation, sad though it may be.
So, what do we do about it? More often than not, musicians sit around steaming about it, belittling the one's that will play for free, berating the club owners and just adding to their own misery. I know, because that's exactly what I used to do. But what did that get me? Nothing. Zip. Nada. I didn't get more gigs, I didn't make more friends, I only created more angst for myself. We're not going to convince the club owners to operate differently until it's in their best interest to operate differently. Believe me, I've tried. I've taken the case to the Musicians' Union, but even they are powerless, at least in Seattle, because the membership is predominantly made up of the symphony/theater crowd, not clubbing musicians. And honestly, even at union scale, which in Seattle is $35/hr., there is no way to earn a living playing clubs. Again, sad but true.
When I decided to stop fighting the reality of the situation and look for alternatives was when I had a great epiphany. Rather than fight a losing battle with the club owners/musicians who don't value us/themselves, I decided to market my services as something that is much more than those other musicians could offer. I actually raised my rates, and promoted my band as a professional entity that could offer a polished performance, show up on time, play a killer show, dress appropriately and help the bar/club/business owner grow their business in ways the freebies can't. I looked for places that weren't offering music and convinced them to let me create a music series that would draw people in. I went to wine bars, restaurants, wineries, anywhere I thought there was space for music and it made sense financially for the business. I talked in terms of "parnership" and "what can I do for you", not "what can you do for me". A new business even sprang up out of my efforts, and now my business partner and myself help other musicians find these opportunities (J&J Music).
And that's only one option. Casuals, weddings, corporate work, nursing homes...there are SO many opportunities for the musicians willing to put in a little work to find and cultivate them. Not to mention all the ways we now have to record and sell our music via the internet.
So my advice is, don't worry about all the opportunities you don't have, just concern yourself with those that you can have. If you want to play for free, so be it. There will always be those opportunities too. But if you want to make money, or even make a living, those aren't the gigs you should spend any time on. There's plenty of work out there, especially in the medium and small markets. It may be tougher in NYC and LA, but then there's really no reason to go there, unless you feel that's where you need to be.
I talk more about these types of issues on my blog, listed below. If you care to visit you'll find many working musicians talking about this stuff. And thanks Billy B for the shoutout!
P.S. - I should mention that I, too, sometimes play gigs for little or no money. There are situations where other factors outweigh the money - a cool group I've wanted to play with, a great project (like the Birth of the Cool Tribute I'm involved in this month) to just plain fun. But I NEVER play a gig for "exposure". That's a fallacy propagated by the club owners to try to add value where none exists. _________________ Check out my new blog about the life of a working musician: OneWorkingMusician.com
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:11 am Post subject:
Jason,
You are a breath of fresh air. I am the co-founder of a nonprofit in our first six mopnths of existence. So far we have presented three workshop/concert events featuring Pat Harbison, Jack Wilkins(the saxophonist), and Tim Coffman. Each event includes a Saturday workshop, Sunday jam session, Monday concerts in the schools, an evening combo concert and Monday night Des Moines Big Band guest appearance. We provided transporatation and over $3,000 in scholarships to the 2009 Jamey Aebersold Summer Jazz Workshop. In our first six months we have reached over 1,000 community members and students. Your positive attitude serves to keep me slugging away at this endeavor.
BTW, the musicians who bitch about no support are the very ones who refuse to support us. Ironic isn't it? _________________ Bill Bergren
Is this situation the same in the classical world? _________________ The thing to judge in any jazz artist is, does the man project and does he have ideas. MilesDavis
"Always be heard - no matter the dynamics."-Mr Adolph Herseth
Yamaha Xeno RGS 2008
Bach Strad 1973
Olds Ambassador 1963
Laskey 65MC
I agree with my friend Jason on many points here. As a working, touring, jazz trumpet player, it is very difficult to put together bookings where you can make money. It isn't impossible, just difficult. It takes a lot of hard work and putting up with a good deal of B.S.
Something to consider (and I think this goes back to the original post) - when a club decides to book "free" bands, generally they get what they pay for. If you believe you deserve more money to perform, you must be sure you are giving more value to the club owner (and audience). If you can provide something no other person on the scene can, they will pay you to do what you do. If you intend to play what everyone else is playing, or to provide an average service, a club isn't going to pay for that.
I have always believed that my earning potential is directly related to how well I play and perform ( when I wonder why I am broke, I remember that I suck - what do expect?). That being said, we all know lots of ridiculous musicians who aren't working in our communities for a variety of reasons. And in many cases the best musicians aren't the busiest. It takes a lot of diligence in and out of the practice room to stay busy and the folks who put in the time usually succeed. But you have to be your own manager, agent, producer and a musician as well.
When people talk about jazz being "dead" - let's not forget that there is plenty of mediocre jazz out there, as there is mediocre pop, rock, C & W, hip hop, etc. Which is why lots of people tend to not like it - it is often times not entertaining. Seeing musicians on the bandstand with hands in their pockets, looking bored, not speaking well on the mic or reading music on the bandstand can kill a performance - it reeks of amateurism. There is some great, amazing music out there as well. Usually, as a consumer of music, you pay a premium for the good stuff. So if you are a musician who wants to make more money, consider your "show" and how to improve upon it and add value to what you are doing.
In the end, if the art form is to survive and be commercially viable (in it's small way) we have to be better. A professional is supposed to be better than a student (college or otherwise). Students are really competent now so they have raised the bar for professionals. We have to keep getting better at playing AND performing to keep the music alive and well. _________________ www.thomasmarriott.net
Joined: 04 Aug 2005 Posts: 570 Location: Denver metro area
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject:
Perhaps, like Venezuela, we need the same social, educational revolution that they have used music to create. Until music and the arts are well funded and back in our schools in full force, how will the children of today really come to appreciate live music. Participating in music, creating music, gives a place for it in people's lives. Denying that participation removes the opportunity to be enriched by music. It's not just jazz that's in trouble, but classical as well. I'd like to see the USA do what Venezuela is doing, but not just with classical music... add a full blown jazz program into the mix!
I would have dropped out of high school but for art and music. How many children are we losing today because they need more in their lives than just math and science?
About the conductor:
LA Phil Music Director Designate Gustavo Dudamel
Gustavo Dudamel, acclaimed worldwide as one of the most exciting and compelling conductors of our time, begins his tenure as Music Director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic in fall 2009, while continuing as Music Director of the Gothenburg Symphony. Dudamel also enters his eleventh year as Music Director of the Simón Bolívar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela. His infectious energy and exceptional artistry have made him one of the most sought-after conductors by orchestras and opera companies around the world.
Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 1292 Location: boulder, colorado
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject:
This has been a good discussion. There's a lot here to digest.
There is no question that the world is changing, and Jazz must change with it, if it is to survive.
I personally like the idea of being my own boss, so playing for the door doesn't really bother me, as long as I feel I am not being scammed, or taken advantage of. I've certainly had both happen many times, so my red lights and alarm bells start going off when I sense this happening. Regarding the clubs, my basic fear is; if you give them an inch, they take a yard.
The main club, at the present, in my locale (Thomas has played there) wants the musician to play for a percentage of the cover charge. This means the club gets ALL the money from food & drink sales, as well as some of the door. The fact that they make the musician do all the promotion and advertising adds to the unfairness of the situation. The musician does everything: advertising, promotion, performance, etc.
The club does NOTHING, except provide a space. If they want a percentage of the door, they should give us a percentage of the bar and food. It's a scam.
If I say that I won't do it, (which I have said) they don't care. There are plenty of folks craving exposure who are dying to get a gig there.
Simply give me all of the door, or some of the tab. Otherwise, you're benefiting too much from my efforts with no risk or investment on your end.
Personally, I'd rather find a place that doesn't serve alcohol, where I'm not playing for drinkers, where my underage students can come with their families, and where I can be sure I'm not being taken advantage of.
It's not about the money. It's the principle. Does this make sense to you guys, or am I just turning into one of those bitter old dudes that I swore
I would never become?
Thanks Thomas and Brad for such good perspective. There are no hard and fast rules, but there are standards I feel we need to uphold.
And Brad, we are all becoming the old dudes we didn't think we'd be. I guess they call that "growth".
And Janet, that is a very inspiring piece. If only we could have that here... _________________ Check out my new blog about the life of a working musician: OneWorkingMusician.com
Then for goodness sake, take your vitamins and exercise regularly. _________________ Carpe Diem
and Plan for Tomorrow
Pat Paulsen for president
http://www.paulsen.com/
Stephen Colbert for president
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject:
<Personally, I'd rather find a place that doesn't serve alcohol, where I'm not playing for drinkers, where my underage students can come with their families, and where I can be sure I'm not being taken advantage of.
It's not about the money. It's the principle. Does this make sense to you guys, or am I just turning into one of those bitter old dudes that I swore
I would never become?>
Brad,
I will play gigs for kids any day. They need it for their development as people.
I used to play every gig that came along. Polka band, two beat dance music, etc. As I get older I have substituted much of my time playing with time teaching. I get as much fun from this and I don't have to drive all night (although I still do this for a good musical gig) and I am in total control. As far as the cats who play for next to nothing, if the music is so important, then why don't they stay in the basement and play with their friends? _________________ Bill Bergren
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) last night I went out and saw Jacob Duncan's trio (he's an amazing local alto player) at a local pub called the Nachbar. This band is a piano-less group (alto,bass,drums) and they were playing some pretty weird/out stuff. Anyways the club was packed and everyone was there to LISTEN! It was beautiful, everybody was shouting and cheering on the soloists (reminded me of the live Freddie Hubbard album "Jam Gems: Live at the Left Bank"). Most of these people were young (18-30) non-musician artsy types. Everybody really loved the music and it was a wonderful thing to witness.
