How to do horizontal valve alignment?

tp2038 · Regular Member Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 97

Does anyone know how to do horizaontal valve alighment? I can do the vertical vlave alignment using different spacers and felt.

To do a horizontal alignment, I think I need the special valve guides I can file to get the right horizontal alignment?

Disassemblying the piston assembly and put them back is too much for me.

Thanks.

nyctrumpeter

VetPsychWars · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:39 am Post subject:

I've done some messing around and it's my belief that the horizontal, or rotational alignment is not an issue unless your pistons were incorrectly assembled to begin with.

Do this experiment: rotate your second valve all of the way right or left, and pump it up and down a few times. Then press the second valve down and look in. You'll note that, as long as the valve is unconstrained, that it returns to rotational alignment. Because that is the path of least resistance, it naturally returns there.

You can't do the same with the stroke, because it's constrained on each end.

Therefore, unless the piston was made wrong, it shouldn't be an issue.

Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
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WildCat · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 1820

shofarguy · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:01 am Post subject:

Sometimes, initial assembly of the piston was a bit off, other times the drill pattern of the piston ports is off. The first can be corrected, the second cannot, except by replacing the piston.

If benificial, Flip Oakes will do horizontal (rotational) re-alignment of the piston. I imagine Bob Reeves, Doctor Valve and others can also perform this service, as well.

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:11 am Post subject:

It is my understanding that horizontal alignment is usually done by unsoldering the piston, aligning, and reattaching. Trimming or tweaking the valve guards might work for small errors but could result in thinner (weakened) guides and perhaps more noise? I have not seen alignment done that way so am guessing.

Whether or not valve alignment helps or not, or perhaps even hurts, is a tough call. I have played horns when the before and after was night and day, and horns that after alignment seemed little different than before. A lot depends upon how far off the original is, and how sensitive you are to such things. There are other things, like excess solder inside the horn, that cam impact performance. Flip can take care of those, two. I've had Flip go through several horns, and some have required quite a bit of work while others were nearly spot-on. There's still a lot of hand work in trumpet manufacture and thus some variability. And, as anyone who's been around CNC machines can attest, they are not infallible, as routine maintenance and monitoring must be performed. They are amazing when running well, but are also good for providing examples of the difference between "accurate" and "precise"...

FWIWFM - Don
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Joyfulnoise · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:34 am Post subject:

I agree with what Don has to say. Improvement depends on how much it is off to begin with. One additional advantage to an alignment is the opportunity to replace pads or felts with synthetic materials that will last and stay consistent a longer period of time. I am a believer in having the best alignment possible for my horns and then moving on and spending my time practicing. My experience is that there is a slight but noticable improvement when there are improvements in alignment. Most people think in terms of the up/down stroke of the piston for proper alignment. The part that surprises me is that so many folks accept the horizontal/sideways "free play" of the piston. From what I've seen, it seems unusual to have a piston assembled in a way that it must be unassembled and the valve guide barrel resoldered to get the holes and ports to be able to line up. But, most manufacturers do use valve guides that have enough free play to allow a considerable amount of misalignment in the horizontal direction. In fact, the possible misalignment would be "way out" considering what we say would be acceptable for the up/down stroke. Now, I know some will say that because the piston floats right to left that at least part of the time it is in the center or may only be slightly off. This can be true for any piston at any time while you're playing, but consider that there are 3 pistons, and what are the chances that all 3 accidently line up in the center for proper alignment all at once. Do you feel lucky ? What I have done on my horns is use brass valve guides. The brass valve guides will still allow the same sideways movements, but they allow me to then add metal (silver solder) and build them up to take out the excess movement. It is a process of adding metal, filing it off, adding, filing until I'm happy. I have to allow just enough freedom for the guide to slide up and down the barrel. It is not that difficult if you are inclined that way and are patient. No doubt about it , it takes time! But, clearly the excess movement is all but gone. The manufactures are in a place where the guides they use must allow for worst case tolerances and ease in fitting and to be able to fit models of horns built over many years of manufacture. This is the same discussion about why a manufacturer doesn't do precision valve alignment at the factory. They manufacture the product to be reasonably close without incurring the extra man hours and cost. But, if you believe in the merits of a proper alignment, and I do, then take a look at the rotational movement in your 2nd valve and think about how you can reduce that. Then after everything is aligned as best as it can be, get back to practicing to allow your horn to help you make the best music you can make.
Mark
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Mark

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VetPsychWars · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:14 am Post subject:

Joyfulnoise · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject:

Tom,
I appreciate what you are saying. I'm not wanting to "pick a fuss" but this is about ideas and experiences.....I have done some experimenting myself by observing the 2nd valve action. What I saw was that sometimes the valve returns to a relative center position but sometimes not. The other part of the centering is that on the down stroke your finger is attached to the button pushing. You would have to assume that you push equally and perfectly centered, exerting no sideways pressure that would cause the piston to rotate slightly, because with your finger attached the valve is no longer free to "float" on its own. It is only at the very top that when I play that my finger part of the time becomes disconnected with the finger button and once disconnected in a stationary position at the top I believe the piston is likely not to move on its own. Again, I don't discount the possibility that the valve can and sometimes will be centered, but that it will some portion of the time be to one side or the other and then there are 3 valves or 3 times the possibility. How much of a difference in playability? Some would say no valve alignment at all is needed and we are fooling ourselves. But, I was once a skeptic and now believe. One thing I am fairly certain of is that reducing or minimizing rotational movement reduces the variability and possibility. Does it help....well, that's a discussion that will probably exist for a while. Enjoy the playing!
_________________
Mark

Schilke B1L
Schilke B6L
Schilke flugel
Besson Prestige 2028 cornet
Schilke XA1 cornet
Van Cleave pocket trumpet

"Play with purpose"

shofarguy · Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject:

I think the answer is that if it is truly necessary, the alignment can be improved, but it won't make a person a good player.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

dhbailey · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject:

Thanks for saying that, Brian -- I think that while there might be a great need for alignment in a tiny percentage of horns, if you really look at the size of the valve ports in many commercial trumpet pistons, they're larger than the holes in the casings. In such instruments there's no way to get even a vertical alignment, since having the bottom of the valve port align with the bottom of the opening in the casing makes the top of the valve port a bit too high, and pressing down (or using a smaller felt) to get the top of the valve port to align makes the bottom of the valve port a bit too low to line up.

And the pistons are as they are (for most users) when the horn is new, so if you like the resistance of the horn, the way the notes slot, etc, part of that may well be because of the alignment or misalignment of the valve ports. Perfecting those may change the way the horn plays (else why spend the money) and it may make the horn worse.

And in any event we won't be better players, we'll still be the same players playing on a trumpet with aligned valve ports.
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shofarguy · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject:

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6180

Don Herman rev2 · Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject:

Got it, understood that -- are oversize guides available? Or is this something you would machine (or have machined) yourself?

My only experience (with several techs) is that they unsolder, move, and resolder, so I am curcious.

Thanks! - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

James Becker · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:59 am Post subject:

When I correct rotational alignment on conventional pistons I hold the piston in a collet on one end and a live center on the other to maintain center while I heat and rotate. Through trial and error I repeat until piston ports are in line with the casings.

The ultimate solution is Sonare's MicroLok valve guides, but are only available on Sonare trumpets. These three part guides are made up of a brass guide, delrin guide and torx center screw that make a "sandwich". The neck of the bottom brass guide is cut back to allow it to move sided to side, while the delrin top guide is closely fit to the spring barrel slots. By loosening the screw the undercut brass guide can rotate side to side, at this point an expandable plug or pilot holds the piston in place to line up the ports on center while the torx screw is tensioned to hold the two pieces in place. This design combines the acoustic benefit of a brass guide seated in the casing while the spring barrel rides quietly on a delrin guide.

This from the the Sonare website:

At Sonaré, we understand that one of the most notorious problems affecting trumpets is valve alignment. Our solution to that problem is exclusive. Sonaré's MicroLok™ valve system (patent pending), co-invented by Cliff Blackburn and Steven Wasser of Powell Flutes, revolutionizes valve alignment. During the production process, a custom-made tool sets the piston into its perfect radial and vertical alignment position. A set screw is then tightened to lock the adjustable valve guide and secure the Monel piston into place. While this adjustment is permanent, MicroLok allows the alignment to be easily reset at any time by a trained technician, without soldering. Valves can be easily cleaned and oiled without disturbing the alignment.
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etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6180

VetPsychWars · Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:50 am Post subject:

Perhaps they fix the piston so standard guides can be used henceforth when the current ones wear out.

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1