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Name some efficient horns


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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:58 am    Post subject: Name some efficient horns Reply with quote

In my evolution as a trumpet player I am finding I like more efficient horns. By this I mean what I think most other people mean, I will last longer on it since it's less work to get the sound concept I want out of the other end. The thing I like about an efficient horn is I can more focus on the music -- taking more effort takes away musicality.

A few years ago I bought an Edwards Gen 3 large bore at a fire sale, fantastic sound but I don't play it much any more due to how much work it is. Instead I am playing various French horns, Aubertin and Courtois manufactured, which I find easier to play.

What's considered efficient these days? In looking up past posts it seems the Yamaha Bobby Shew (6310Z and 8310Z) win the prize, and runner-up seems to be various Schilke horns like the S42, B6, and B7. I haven't played any of these so I'm just quoting others. I find my Aubertin and Courtois horns relatively efficient but have not heard them mentioned as such.
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adc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess whatever works for you. Obviously a cornet is "easier" to play, in terms of overall effort, but I guess you "get what you pay for"(sound/volume.)

After playing a couple dozen different horns,I find my 1910 Conn Perfected Wonder and my 1914 York Improved Perfect (don't you like the names..lol) are the easiest to play.

My 1999 Getzen Capri is the hardest..but it puts out a ton of sound. Again..what do you want? I doubt there are any free lunches. Just an opinion here.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given that criteria, I would suggest a Yamaha Bobby Shew. Light, quality workmanship, excellent response, not breath-volume demanding. You will need to get used to its feedback, if you're used to playing larger bore horns. It's a small-bore horn.

Caveat: I have played various Bachs, Schilke, Conns, Getzen Severinsens, Yamahas, Martin Committee, Olds and Selmer. I know nothing of boutique horns.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Austin Winds Stage 466. The tech in the horn is amazing. Responds like a lightweight, but weighs a ton! Has the best of both characteristics sets.

BUT: it is a darker, stronger core highly responsive horn - traditional lightweights are bright characteristically.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO efficiency is more the match to the player... What we're talking here are horns on the tighter side, I think?

The Shews are definitely worth trying (all models, IMHO).

A Connstellation 38B if you can find one in good nick is a real treat. Kanstul's reimagining of these are decent too, though noticeably different.

Another thought...
If you're a gear fettler at heart, it might even be wise to look at horns with changeable leadpipe systems (eg: Eclipse, Smith-Watkins) - with these if you decide you want something tighter you can change the leadpipe for a tighter one, or if you decide you want to move back to more open then you can change to more open pipes... Ultimately, the idea behind this suggestion is that it leaves you able to try changes at a later date at much lower cost than selling and buying something else.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not necessarily looking for tight, just for efficient. I agree there is a player component to it but it's not 100% in the player -- there is a horn component as well.

The Austin Winds Stage 466 sounds really interesting, it sounds like a non-tight efficient horn.

Re: changeable leadpipes, the Edwards has that. I got a smaller leadpipe after purchasing the horn and I like that better than the original one but it still didn't get me to the efficiency of my French horns.

Re: cornets, I started on cornet and maybe one reason why I like an efficient horn is I got used to the relatively easy blow there.
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crose
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jupiter Ingram - not tight or overly bright, but efficient
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leahcim
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an 8B Artist for the exact reasons you mention. 8B's are phenomenal horns and in my opinion far superior to 38B's due to weight / response. 8310Z is also a very nice horn and you can't go wrong with any of the efficient Schilke models - in fact I played a B6 a few years ago that was incredible. There are lots of options out on the market for you!
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jetjaguar
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I lucked into an Olds Super Recording. I had been dreaming of just playing one, never mind owning one. But that's due to TH koolaid as much as anything.

But now I have one and I'm hoisting the pitcher like a Viking who just won the lottery.

For me, with a CKB 7C, it's got a wonderful combination of a warm coppery sound and responsiveness, ease of play. That must be why they're fawned over as they are.

I find that any notable or remarkable phenomenon is usually due to a confluence of desirable qualities, which in this case are sound and ease of play. I also have an Olds Studio which creates a wonderful sound overflowing with character, but you have to push on it harder to move it around on demanding passages. I feel that pushback is a result (or cause) of the great sound on the Studio.

The later Recording without the bell ring is much more plentiful in supply, but I've never played one. I don't know what the rose brass bell and leader-mouth-piper do to the responsiveness.
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veery715
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heavier trumpets like Monette, Harrelson, Getzen Genesis, tend to put more energy out the bell, losing less through feedback to the player via the mass of the instrument. I would say that makes them more efficient, but the feedback missing may result in the player overcompensating/overblowing.

The Genesis has interchangeable leadpipes like the Edwards so some experimentation there could be productive. I have one and prefer the more open leadpipe.

I know this thread is about efficient horns, but keep in mind that efficiency begins with the embouchure/mouthpiece end of things.

EDIT: To address the previous post's mention of the Olds Recording, I have had several and they have all been a fairly demanding blow, though the sound is worth it.
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hose
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"By this I mean what I think most other people mean, I will last longer on it since it's less work to get the sound conceptI want out of the other end".

I don't think you mentioned the genre that you frequent. ie, classical, Jazz, big band, pit, rock, etc. You define efficiency as less work. Which makes sense. So you would probably not be very efficient (less work) using a "pea shooter" horn on a rock gig or as a big band lead (generally speaking). It could wear you out unless you are a very efficient player on that pea shooter. Conversely, a huge horn on a quintet gig might be a lot of effort to control.
In most situations I think the efficiency has to be generated from the player more than the equipment. The type of player you are also plays in to what your equipment should be. Do you use lots of air? Are you a "white knuckle player"? We often hear the maxim, "use the right tool for the job." So in your case, the genre is a big consideration for a horn that conserves your energy.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

veery715 wrote:
I know this thread is about efficient horns, but keep in mind that efficiency begins with the embouchure/mouthpiece end of things.


This.

IMHO efficiency is about wasted energy (lack thereof) - how much you have to put in Vs how much you get out (and not just in air terms)... And the "you" makes it somewhat subjective.

In one sense, it's intonation that makes a horn efficient or not - if intonation is squiffy then it can't be efficient because you'll waste energy lipping notes around.

I don't necessarily understand why people want to call tighter-than-average horns efficient on the basis of blow resistance, but that appears to be a somewhat accepted norm... And if we understand what's meant by it, are my (and your?) objections merely semantics?


Sorry, enough off topic from me...
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience the easiest horns to play have been those with the most resistance. Three horns in particular on that list are my 1956 Selmer Balanced Model 24A, my 1956 Martin Committee Deluxe M bore and my 1966 Olds Mendez. All of them are very responsive with comparatively little effort.
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
veery715 wrote:
I know this thread is about efficient horns, but keep in mind that efficiency begins with the embouchure/mouthpiece end of things.


This.

IMHO efficiency is about wasted energy (lack thereof) - how much you have to put in Vs how much you get out (and not just in air terms)... And the "you" makes it somewhat subjective.

In one sense, it's intonation that makes a horn efficient or not - if intonation is squiffy then it can't be efficient because you'll waste energy lipping notes around.

I don't necessarily understand why people want to call tighter-than-average horns efficient on the basis of blow resistance, but that appears to be a somewhat accepted norm... And if we understand what's meant by it, are my (and your?) objections merely semantics?


Sorry, enough off topic from me...


I think this is good context though and I completely agree, it's the overall in vs out of the whole system. So yes a horn with bad intonation will make efficient playing hard due to all the lipping needed.

Re:mouthpieces, I am currently playing on a Monette mouthpiece in large part because when I have it dialed in its very efficient. Also I have been taking lessons to improve my (recently crappy, inefficient) embouchure. I've only been serious about the trumpet for a couple years, so it's all under evolution at this point.

Re: Selmer 24A, I had a 24B which I didn't find unusually efficient. I sold it and kept my Leblanc/Courtois. Never had a 24A though.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason Harrelson makes what I regard as the most efficient horns on the market: The most sound for the least effort. Having said that, I found that a different playing concept is required to achieve that efficiency; otherwise, you just wind up over blowing. I think you really have to buy into his "system" to get the most out of his horns.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I own three trumpets that I consider fairly efficient, in the sense that I find them easier to play for longer stretches than some of the more open trumpets I've played: Yamaha Xeno, Bach Strad 180-37, and Yamaha 6310-Z Bobby Shew. The first two are ML bore, std leadpipe, yellow brass bell. The Shew has a medium step bore.
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Bill Ortiz
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olds Super-I played a '47 Super for a while and found it very efficient, especially in the upper register.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
IMHO efficiency is more the match to the player…
…Another thought...
If you're a gear fettler at heart, it might even be wise to look at horns with changeable leadpipe systems (eg: Eclipse, Smith-Watkins) - with these if you decide you want something tighter you can change the leadpipe for a tighter one, or if you decide you want to move back to more open then you can change to more open pipes... Ultimately, the idea behind this suggestion is that it leaves you able to try changes at a later date at much lower cost than selling and buying something else.

Toward the end of my 2.5-year horn safari up recently, I landed a used Eclipse MR (medium red brass bell). I felt that it would be great for a jazz soloist, but a little too dark for what I was seeking, so I looked into the newer models and found that the LYL (large yellow brass lightweight bell) was the route to go with the CLS (changeable leadpipe system). At first I felt most comfortable on the “O” pipe, but eventually gravitated to using the T4 pipe and CL (“Changeable Leadpipe”) pipe. What I have discovered, though, is that all of the leadpipes, and even older models with fixed leadpipes, have an amazing response to the blow, so if that is what you want, you might want to try the Eclipse line. If I had to do it all over again, I’d order a regular bell in a lightweight (which would be a custom order and not sure if they’ve made one to date) and have it built rimless (“Solar”). Leigh McKinney has said that the rimless bell makes the response even quicker.

Dayton wrote:
Jason Harrelson makes what I regard as the most efficient horns on the market: The most sound for the least effort. Having said that, I found that a different playing concept is required to achieve that efficiency; otherwise, you just wind up over blowing. I think you really have to buy into his "system" to get the most out of his horns.

I bought a used Harrelson Silver Summit in mint and did not like the blow at first. After a brief practice session on it, I put it in the case and did not pull it back out for 2-3 weeks. Then I decided a different approach: to gently get into the blow…to “make friends” with the instrument and not try to “force” my way of playing on it. That worked! It was then a different horn, altogether! The horn came to life and started to “obey” what I wanted it to do…ha! No, really. After going through this horn search and having played many horns, I feel that the process has helped me learn how to adapt my blow, that is, everything that I put into the horn, so that I maximize what it has for me at that time in my development. Toward the end of my journey (which was largely based on our bank account!), I was finding more and more horns just “worked” for me. I’m sure many of you have already discovered this.

But to find the most “efficient” horn…hmm…certainly is a subjective and individual process, I think, right?
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stevericks
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetjaguar wrote:
I lucked into an Olds Super Recording. I had been dreaming of just playing one, never mind owning one. But that's due to TH koolaid as much as anything.

The later Recording without the bell ring is much more plentiful in supply, but I've never played one. I don't know what the rose brass bell and leader-mouth-piper do to the responsiveness.


While the Olds Recording is a fabulous horn, I would never characterize it as efficient - if you mean an easy player by the word. IMHO it takes quite a bit of work to play a Recording. It delivers a fabulous sound, but you have to be willing to work for it. When I am not in good playing shape, it is the one horn I pass up for a gig. Just my opinion.
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jetjaguar
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevericks wrote:
jetjaguar wrote:
I lucked into an Olds Super Recording. I had been dreaming of just playing one, never mind owning one. But that's due to TH koolaid as much as anything.

The later Recording without the bell ring is much more plentiful in supply, but I've never played one. I don't know what the rose brass bell and leader-mouth-piper do to the responsiveness.


While the Olds Recording is a fabulous horn, I would never characterize it as efficient - if you mean an easy player by the word. IMHO it takes quite a bit of work to play a Recording. It delivers a fabulous sound, but you have to be willing to work for it. When I am not in good playing shape, it is the one horn I pass up for a gig. Just my opinion.


Maybe that's why the SR is differentiated. For me it's an easy player, but I don't have much ability nor knowledge of many other horns.

If you cue this video to 2:05, Trent talks about his specimen being accurate and speaking fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApZ5ZauTj9U
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