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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: Trumpet vs. Cornet Intonation |
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I have noticed something about my playing that is pretty much consistent across different brands of cornets and mouthpieces.
First off I am trained as a trumpet player but I have been playing cornet seriously for the past 3 years. On my trumpet the second line G and third space C are easily in tune with each other. If I tune to one the other will be in tune too. But on cornet if I tune to C I find the G very flat and if I tune to G I find the C very sharp. This seems to be the case on all of the Besson or Besson clones cornets I have tried.
Does anyone have insight on this? I usually play a Wick mouthpiece on cornet but I have tried different brands and the intonation problem remains and since I do not have this problem on trumpet I wonder if it is a peculiarity of cornet playing.
-BudBix |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2610 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Questions:
1. What kind of cornet are you playing?
2. Which Wick are you using?
3. What trumpet mouthpiece do you use?
This will likely expose the answer, but I won't give it away yet. I know from my own experience the difficulty of matching cornet and trumpet MP's to get the best of both, or maybe the best of one and compromise of the other. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: |
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1. York Preference large bore
2. Wick 3
3. Bach 3C
Last edited by BudBix on Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lpennel Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 133 Location: Golden, CO
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: You are correct |
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BudBix,
Yea, I play principle cornet in a brass band and have found that the Besson and it's clones all have those pitch problems. Before I play a tuning pitch for the ensemble (Concert Bb) I usually pull my tuning slide out about 1/4 inch or more. I have had many cornets and have found that C is sharp and F is flat on many of them, especially the Besson and it's clones, including my Sterling Bb. With that said, the Besson and it's clones have a great sound, however, they are difficult to play in tune until you have played them long enough to make the adjustments needed automatically without thinking about it.
I normally tune to Concert A (3rd line B) when I am adjusting my own horn. The C will still be sharp, however, the G will not be as bad. The more tired I get, the harder it is the bring the C down, especially when you start adding mutes into the mix.
I currently play the Getzen 3850 with the copper bell and have found that this pitch issue is not quite as bad as other horns. There are other horns out there that play more in tune including the XENO, Smith Watkins, Most student line Yamahas.
Watch first line E, it usually is quite sharp and 3rd space D is flat.
I hope this helps.
Larry _________________ Warburton Dealer - PM me if you need anything!
Elkhart Strad 37
1954 Olds Recording
Getzen Custom 3850 Cornet
Yamaha 610 Flugelhorn
Xeno 8335RGS
1951 Olds Studio Model
Yamaha E flat Cornet
RockyMountainbrassworks.com |
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progmac Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2008 Posts: 387
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: |
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interesting topic. with cornet, i need first & third triggers, whereas on the trumpet they aren't nearly such a big deal for me. i have the same experience with third space C being sharp, also with top line F being sharp. between alternate fingerings and my slide triggers, i'm usually able to make it work. |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Larry tuning to concert A does help to even it out. I really like the sound I get with my York so I am going to keep working at it. |
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Flattergrub Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Sep 2008 Posts: 762
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Budbix - If you can, take a look at page 288 of Dave Hickman's "Trumpet Pedagogy" book. It has a very good intonation chart which I think you will find interesting. It shows that for most trumpets (and I suspect most brass instruments) that if you tune to a "C" below the staff that your 2nd line "G" will be quite flat and your 3rd space "C" will be a tad sharp so if you tune to a 3rd space "C", both your low C and 2nd line "G" will be flat.
I play a Smith Watkin's "Soloist" cornet with a Wick 4 and find that my horn/mpc combination matches exactly to this chart so I make the necessary adjustments with both my triggers. _________________ Smith Watkins "Soloist" cornet with K2 and T4 leadpipes and Denis Wick RW4 mpc |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Flattergrub wrote: | Budbix - If you can, take a look at page 288 of Dave Hickman's "Trumpet Pedagogy" book. It has a very good intonation chart which I think you will find interesting. It shows that for most trumpets (and I suspect most brass instruments) that if you tune to a "C" below the staff that your 2nd line "G" will be quite flat and your 3rd space "C" will be a tad sharp so if you tune to a 3rd space "C", both your low C and 2nd line "G" will be flat.
I play a Smith Watkin's "Soloist" cornet with a Wick 4 and find that my horn/mpc combination matches exactly to this chart so I make the necessary adjustments with both my triggers. |
I hear ya, but I don't have this problem on a Bach Bb Trumpet, maybe I've learned to adjust on it since that is what I have played for past 25+ years or maybe it's just that good. Anyway during practice today I am finding that tuning to a A concert (which basically puts the slide in between what works for the G and the C) helps to even out the intonation. I also popped in a Wick 4 and it's a little better than my 3 tuning wise. Sometimes the 4 impinges my lips which is why I haven't settled on it. Someday I may try doing a Bach 3C screw rim on a Wick 4 underpart. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2610 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry it took so long to get back to this. So you are playing a 3C on your med. bore trumpet and a Wick 3 on your large bore York cornet. Been there, done that. You are moving from a trumpet system with lots of resistance to cornet system with little. Throw in a larger diameter rim size on the cornet MP and you are asking for issues. It takes a lot to fill that Wick MP and horn. I find it easier to go to a Wick 4 from a Bach 3 sized trumpet MP. That's just the size issue. So that could help. But you still are asking alot of transition in resistance change.
I'll bet your problem goes away with a compromise at either end in MP's. Less resistant trumpet MP or more resistant cornet MP. Just a thought.
What do you think? I've recorded myself using lots of combinations and my intonation is much better through all ranges with a compromise like above. That means I use a less resistant trumpet MP, i.e. 22-23 throat for example. Your mileage may vary.
And your York is probably not the problem. Mine has amazing intonation. _________________ Richard
Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: |
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I've been practicing on a Wick 4 for a few days and that has helped alot. The tendency for third space C to be sharp is still there but much more manageable. |
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roynj Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065
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Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:51 am Post subject: |
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BudBix,
I had a Besson cornet 927 and it sounded great, warm and buttery. But the dang thing had a sharp tuning C for some odd reason. If I tuned to the open C, as per usual practice, the rest of the scale would be flat. And if I tuned to the G, the C would be sharp. It was infruriating, and ultimately I got rid of the horn. I now use a Yamaha Xeno cornet and do not have this intonation problem. Although the Xeno does have the usual sharp low C# and D. Its intonation scalewise is very much like a trumpet. (cornet YCR 8335G, Wick 2B).
Roy |
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Destructo Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2022 Posts: 167
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:28 am Post subject: |
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roynj wrote: | BudBix,
I had a Besson cornet 927 and it sounded great, warm and buttery. But the dang thing had a sharp tuning C for some odd reason. If I tuned to the open C, as per usual practice, the rest of the scale would be flat. And if I tuned to the G, the C would be sharp. It was infruriating, and ultimately I got rid of the horn. I now use a Yamaha Xeno cornet and do not have this intonation problem. Although the Xeno does have the usual sharp low C# and D. Its intonation scalewise is very much like a trumpet. (cornet YCR 8335G, Wick 2B).
Roy |
*ZOMBIE THREAD*
Am reviving this one just to say 'I'm glad it's not just me!'
I just started playing some cornet (Besson 927) and that 1st line G - wowza.
Am finding that if I tune to a B, all the valve combinations are pretty well in tune (including Fs and As). But the 2nd line G is low and the low C and middle C are sharp. Lower than low C is also way sharp, but none of the pieces have anything below low C so far, so am ignoring that problem for now |
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peanuts56 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2021 Posts: 220
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 7:18 am Post subject: |
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The only cornet I've ever played was an old Grand Rapids I bought years ago. It was made in 1885 -86. It played fine but eventually needed to have the valves replated. I loved the sound. Physically it was so easy to get around on as well. I've pretty much stopped playing for a variety of reasons. (mostly laziness)
Some years ago, I was running lights for a production of Music Man, and it was used as a prop. The young lady playing trumpet in the pit band offered to buy it. I only paid $25 for it and just gave it away. I think she was planning to have the horn overhauled. |
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