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hien peter
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 Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: a |
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two positions are controversial,
- the oral cavity is important
- versus
- oral cavity doesn´t matter.
Both parties obviously cannot come together.
For me this is understandable,
because both have a completely different approach and experience,
roughly spoken there are two approaches to play the trumpet:
1. the lip vibrators with squeezing and compression
. (the high volume - high presure approach)
2. the others look for the singing and whisthling way to play it
. (the low volume - low pressure method)
"You should not hit the fly on the brow of your friend with a hammer"
old tibetian saying
Peter
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bdufls
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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One can play an extremely rapid "lip trill" in the high register
(notes above the staff) by moving the tongue alone. The tongue rapidly
alternates between the "AH" and "EE" vowel sound positions. There is
no motion in the lips, jaw, or hands.
To be sure, the tongue is one of a number variables. But it most certainly
is an important one. |
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gelatinshoehorn
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | The trumpet tone is defined by a large set of "overtones" that exists across a large frequency span.
It is doubtful that the oral space is what defines these. (The Moore articles
explain why
Isn't that what a resonator does: emphasize a specific frequency ? You can hear the notes in the overtone series one after the other as you change the oral cavity, just like a wah-wah pedal on an electric guitar.
It is also difficult to do drastic oral space changes whithout affecting the embouchure itself, so attributing sound changes to the oral space when the aperture is changing would be a questionable conclusion for "cause and effect". |
I understand the Chicken/Egg problem here, but I would bring up two points:
-Most often the movement in the oral cavity is very subtle.
-Just as is the case with the main resonator (the horn) there is a feedback loop going on. The resonator emphasizes a certain frequency, and in turn the lip favors vibrating at that same frequency. Your lip plays the horn-the horn plays your lip. I'm not seek "cause and effect". It goes both ways, and the same seems to be true when your oral cavity is the resonator.
The only reason I'm bothering to jump into the discussion is that there seems to be an unfocused critique here. Are you saying that using the oral cavity as a resonator for certain overtones doesn't work ? Or are you saying that it doesn't work the exact way we think it does ? Or are you saying that this technique produces undesirable effects ?
-S |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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peter wrote:
| Quote: | 1. the lip vibrators with squeezing and compression
. (the high volume - high presure approach) |
One can be perfectly capable of recognizing the embouchure's function and dominance and still play in an easy and efficient manner.
Playing is NOT whistling. They are not related.
duflswrote:
| Quote: | One can play an extremely rapid "lip trill" in the high register
(notes above the staff) by moving the tongue alone. The tongue rapidly
alternates between the "AH" and "EE" vowel sound positions. There is
no motion in the lips, jaw, or hands. |
Actually the jaw does move, and in turn so does the aperture size change, which defines the frequency. But we can do this by only conciously shifting the tongue rapidly.
You should see the clear mouthpiece demonstration. Its on the web somewhere. i will try to dig it up. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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S wrote:
| Quote: | | It goes both ways, and the same seems to be true when your oral cavity is the resonator. |
There are vast differences.
The resonator that is the horn has several strong (high impedance) and relatively closely spaced resonances. These are the harmonc series.
The oral space has weak and widely spaced resonances. (low impedance)
The pulsing aperture has quite a bit of self-resistance (especially as we ascend) AND is a distinct anti-node. These factors effectively de-couple any resonance in the vocal tract from those in the instrument.
The horn resonances ARE strong and there will be a note if the lip aperture pulsation is of a frequency that "agrees". That is all that is required.
But are we talking the oral resonance assisting the base frequency or influencing the harmonics? The topic seems to switch between the two cases.
if you do take note of the vocal tract frequencies compared to the note (and harmonic) frequencies versus what the oral space must do to simply manipulate the embouchure. It is unlikely that the oral space could match two of these, impossible that it could match all three. Especially given what the oral space (the tongue) must do to articulate notes and other things.
The non-sinusoidal pulsations of the aperture is what introduces a series of many harmonics.The embouchure function AND the loudness of the tone affect these.
There is no objective evidence that the oral space resonance has any influence on these for a trumpet player. Presently it is a popular myth. |
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differencetone
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| We should do CAT scans of an expert trumpet player with a plastic trumpet and get to the bottom of this. An FMRI would be interesting as well. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Actually it would reveal little because it would be difficult to seperate all the variables and test them independently.
The ideal test would be an in vitro one. That is completely controllable.
That is an artificial oral space that would fuction exactly like a player's oral space (easy), and an artificial embouchure that would function exactly like a players (difficult).
Then you could vary them independently and note the pitch and/or spectrum analysis or test them on a group of listeners.
Thomas Moore actually did this along with computer and electrical circuit simulations and came to the conclusion that the oral size does not influence pitch. (Of course this outcome is still largely ignored by those who have come to the conclusions otherwise.) |
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differencetone
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agolden
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:28 am Post subject: |
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[deleted by user]
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Andiroo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Just like to say that i've got my Dan Moi! 
Pretty fun to play with, I personally am trying to use it for an ah-ee-ah-ee fast transition building. Wonder if it'll affect my playing at all.
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slee331
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:26 pm Post subject: what about Malte Burba |
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Some pretty fast lip trilling, check out this youtube clip, I guess another yay for tongue controlled trills.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMHASdxrzhg&feature=related
It seems if one has a nice efficient pinhole type aperture going, the flutter/to/fro movement of the tongue seems to quickly pop additional air through the aperture on it's to movement, and less air on the fro movement. So regardless of oral cavity, it seems it is actually airspeed through a very responsive aperture induced by the pop of air provided by the tongue.
I have yet to develop my chops to this point, but for those who can lip trill using their tongue, does the above make sense? At least that what it seems to sound like in my mind, air changing speeds through a very responsive aperture controlled by the tongue.
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beagle
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Thomas Moore actually did this along with computer and electrical circuit simulations and came to the conclusion that the oral size does not influence pitch. (Of course this outcome is still largely ignored by those who have come to the conclusions otherwise.) |
I wrote to Thomas Moore to see what his thoughts were on this. His response is as follows:
| Quote: |
I wrote a short article on the effect of the size of the oral cavity that appeared in the ITG Journal in 2002, which I have attached for you. As you will see, we could find no experimental evidence that the size of the oral cavity had an effect on the sound. However, my friend and colleague Wilfried Kausel at the Institute fur Weiner Klangstil (Musical Acoustics) in Vienna disagrees with my conclusions. He believes that the size of the oral cavity probably does make a difference, and he makes a good theoretical case for it, but he has not proposed a reason why our experiments could not find this effect.
Although I believe that the size of the oral cavity has little to do with the final sound of the trumpet, as I point out in the article I do believe that a change in the air flow can have an effect. So the tongue position probably does have an effect if it changes the flow of air reaching the lips. We have found that the details of the flow affect the motion of our artificial lips considerably in some cases; therefore, the shape of the oral cavity probably can affect the sound if it changes the details of the flow.
Unfortunately, the work with saxophones does not apply to trumpets because of the vastly different input impedance. However, I think a survey of musical acousticians that work with brass instruments would show a general belief that the shape of the oral cavity affects the sound of a trumpet, but there would be disagreement on the reasons why.
I certainly hope that Joe looks at the problem soon, regardless of the results it will be interesting.
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Rob
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have yet to develop my chops to this point, but for those who can lip trill using their tongue, does the above make sense? |
I have.
It doesn't. |
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Peter Bond
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| bdufls wrote: | One can play an extremely rapid "lip trill" in the high register
(notes above the staff) by moving the tongue alone. The tongue rapidly
alternates between the "AH" and "EE" vowel sound positions. There is
no motion in the lips, jaw, or hands.
To be sure, the tongue is one of a number variables. But it most certainly
is an important one. |
I've experimented witth this over the years, and I think you'll find that with players who can play rapid tongue (lip) trills, the tongue actually touches the bottom lip, thereby changing the aperture with the "oo-ee" motion. If this doesn't happen, one can "oo-ee-oo-ee" all day and nothing will happen to the sound. "Anchor" or "dorsal" tonguing positions the tongue so that this is very easy. The player in the german video appears to be doing this (it's the way I happen to play). |
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slee331
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:00 pm Post subject: Thanks Peter |
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Peter, thank you for taking the time to provide your insights into the matter, this is very useful. Have you any experience dealing with players with a cupids bow/protruding upper lip? Though i've tried to take a lip curl path, it seems, to put it bluntly, that the lips respond better when they are full and create a sphincter, with the tongue tip as you stated, anchored on the lower lip. I've still got to refine it some, but based on my sound, feel i'm finally on the right path.
I guess i'm just looking for piece of mind some knowing that it is possible to develop strong chops with fleshy lips.
Thanks again.
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- 1975 CLINIC ADDRESS by Prof. William A. Adam |
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Peter Bond
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Thanks Peter |
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| slee331 wrote: | Peter, thank you for taking the time to provide your insights into the matter, this is very useful. Have you any experience dealing with players with a cupids bow/protruding upper lip? Though i've tried to take a lip curl path, it seems, to put it bluntly, that the lips respond better when they are full and create a sphincter, with the tongue tip as you stated, anchored on the lower lip. I've still got to refine it some, but based on my sound, feel i'm finally on the right path.
I guess i'm just looking for piece of mind some knowing that it is possible to develop strong chops with fleshy lips.
Thanks again. |
Just to be clear, the tip of my tongue is 'anchored' (gently) behind my lower teeth, If I then push the tongue forward (oo-ee motion), the resulting arch bumps the bottom lip where it curls (ever so little) over my bottom teeth, changing the aperture and creating vibrato or if exaggerated, a 'lip' trill (this above the staff, where the interval is a min3rd or less).
I believe some high note methods advocate placing the tip of the tongue against the bottom lip or even in front of the bottom teeth, but that's not what I am describing.
I have had no experience with the 'cupids bow' or 'teardrop' lip formation in my teaching, but suspect someone like Pops or David Hickman has, and may be able to help you.
Good luck.
PB
P.S. I usually avoid the term 'sphincter' when talking about playing or eating, but maybe that's just me being squeemish. |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Peter Bond wrote:
| Quote: | | I've experimented witth this over the years, and I think you'll find that with players who can play rapid tongue (lip) trills, the tongue actually touches the bottom lip, thereby changing the aperture with the "oo-ee" motion. If this doesn't happen, one can "oo-ee-oo-ee" all day and nothing will happen to the sound. "Anchor" or "dorsal" tonguing positions the tongue so that this is very easy. |
I concur. I'll also add that it is possible to have bottom lip tissue inside the bottom teeth while thickening the lips forward. And, I believe that with anchor tonguing the tongue is not jammed into the teeth, but lightly in contact and may vary from gumline to cutting edge, where it could contact lower lip as well. That's how I play.
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kramergfy
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. I can't lip trill, so I'll "oo-ee-oo-ee" til the cows come home without anything. I guess it's because my aperture isn't changing from the tongue movement? I'll experiment with the above two posts in mind and see what happens. I CAN shake by doing the arm-strong extreme hand vibrato method, but never have lip trilled.
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Oliver Hix
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| I'm very sorry, I skipped a number of the pages, so maybe this was already answered- do y'all think Adam is lying or is ignorant of exactly how he is playing? |
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Pops
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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It is the air stream FOCUS that all forms of anchor tonguing produce. This is why it works for anchor tonguing and fails with tongue tip tonguing.
In the tiss syllable the sides of the tongue touch the teeth up to the roof of the mouth cutting the width of the air stream dramatically.
Blow x amount of air at 1 inch of lip tissue you get a note. Blow the same X amount at 1/2 an inch of lip tissue and the note is an octave higher.
Air focus with anchor tonguing is our octave key.
Look for the 1976 Brian Wadsworth study done with the physics dept at The University of BC. They call the action the critical width of the air stream changing octaves.
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