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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Oliver Hix wrote: | | I'm very sorry, I skipped a number of the pages, so maybe this was already answered- do y'all think Adam is lying or is ignorant of exactly how he is playing? |
I skipped all those pages, too! Adam is telling the truth and knows exactly what he is doing when he's playing.
And what Peter Bond says is obviously true for him, but for me and I'm sure for many others, my tongue does not come into contact with my lower lip when I do a tongue trill in any register. I can easily do rapid, Maynard Ferguson type trills up high, and while it is definitely facilitated by my arching tongue moving in the same manner it moves if I were to whistle a trill, my lip is not supporting or touching my lower lip while this happens. And like Peter, I tongue K-Tongue Modified (Dorsal) style. My tongue does often articulate against my lower lip when I am playing articulated notes.
Hope this is helpful!
Best wishes,
John Mohan
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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oxleyk
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4180
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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What a shame. This thread was so peacefully dead.
Kent |
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Shaft
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Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 983
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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May it R.I.P.
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Norman
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Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 383
Location: Milan, Italy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: |
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This is a very interesting thread for those willing to ignore pathetic and useless battles of words to concentrate on some very good advice from some very wise and competent people.
Too many times on this forum you have to dig into big bunches of b.s. to get a few gems... A little more active moderation would be welcome.
I have attended two masterclasses with Adam, and I had the chance to hear him play from up close quite a few times. Frankly speaking I don't give a damn what law of nature is behind what he does, what matters is that it works very well for him and for most people who follow his advice. I have NEVER seen anyone playing at that level so effortlessly. The guy's for real, both as a performer AND a teacher.
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"Don't play like a trumpeter, play like a singer!" Andrea Giuffredi
Taylor Chicago X-Lite
AR Resonance MC 40/8 Mouthpiece |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| Pops wrote: | It is the air stream FOCUS that all forms of anchor tonguing produce. This is why it works for anchor tonguing and fails with tongue tip tonguing.
In the tiss syllable the sides of the tongue touch the teeth up to the roof of the mouth cutting the width of the air stream dramatically.
Blow x amount of air at 1 inch of lip tissue you get a note. Blow the same X amount at 1/2 an inch of lip tissue and the note is an octave higher.
Air focus with anchor tonguing is our octave key.
Look for the 1976 Brian Wadsworth study done with the physics dept at The University of BC. They call the action the critical width of the air stream changing octaves. |
+1 |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| oxleyk wrote: | What a shame. This thread was so peacefully dead.
Kent |
Wow, I had no idea that this was a thread just recently brought back from 3+ years of TH Purgatory! It's Oliver's fault.  |
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Jerry
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Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 2162
Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Where does one obtain a Dan Moi? |
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ghelbig
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 908
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Jerry wrote: | | Where does one obtain a Dan Moi? |
eBay: http://www.ebay.com/bhp/dan-moi
Google is your friend. At least the search function can be... |
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BraeGrimes
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Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 269
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| LeeC wrote: | | crzytptman wrote: | LeeC wrote:
| Quote: | | When you restricted your mouth cavity by moving your tongue upwards you actually closed your jaw slightly at the same time. This reduced the "door frame" of the upper lip and allowed a higher pitch to emanate. But the restriction of the mouth cavity had nothing to do with the pitch change directly. |
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The idea that a jaw movement causing a teeth closure and influencing a reduction in upper lip aperture size making the pitch ascend (in a brass instrument player) is supported by ALL THE EVIDENCE.[/b]
The idea that a tongue arch raises a pitch is REFUTED by ALL OF NATURAL LAW.
So take your pick. This ain't like betting on Red vs Black here folks... |
Ok I get that, BUT - when you close the apeture of anything (for example, arching the tongue closes the apeture of the air passing by the teeth) the air speeds up. Same volume of air will move at a greater speed. Speed = pitch, and volume = volume. There's some science bro |
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percivalthehappyboy
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Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| BraeGrimes wrote: |
Ok I get that, BUT - when you close the apeture of anything (for example, arching the tongue closes the apeture of the air passing by the teeth) the air speeds up. Same volume of air will move at a greater speed. Speed = pitch, and volume = volume. There's some science bro |
Turn on the water in your bathroom sink, and then slowly close the valve. That's science, too. |
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gbdeamer
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Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 2301
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Oliver Hix wrote: | | I'm very sorry, I skipped a number of the pages, so maybe this was already answered- do y'all think Adam is lying or is ignorant of exactly how he is playing? |
Because those are the only two possible options?
Dude is a world-class/elite/fantastic/stud/humble/brilliant trumpet player, so PERHAPS (just perhaps) he's on to something and he's trying to explain it as clearly as possible so the layman can understand it?
Nah, he's just an ignorant liar. |
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rothman
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Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 329
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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A keen thread that delves into pros / cons of the tongue, Tingshas, as well as the garden hose example often mentioned but seen differently here.
( pg 5 )
| LeeC wrote: |
Like poles repel, opposites attract.
Momentum.
Newton's "Equal and opposite reaction" Law.
Each of the above is an example of a particular condition of natural law.
But no one can break a natural law. Gravity will pull that bowling ball down every time without exception.
The Psi within the body/mouth cavity is the ONLY force that can generate an air column vibration inside the mouthpiece opening of any brass instrument. The speed of the air prior to release is irrelevant.
This is a "Closed System" (my words)
Adam's Jews harp (or whatever it is) is part of an "Open System".
The old "Nozzle at the end of a garden hose" isn't applicable to a tongue arch.
Reason?
It isn't the release point.
The vibrating portion of the lips inside the mouthpiece is the release point. Here the "faster air" makes a difference but it only gets "faster" as it leaves the lips into the mouthpiece. Not before.
THAT is the "garden hose nozzle".
Oddly a tongue arch usually can't cause any harm. Not unless it truly sealed off most all the channel. At that time we'd hear and audible "Heeeccthhhhheptthhzch" turbulence inside the mouth.
And for those practitioners of the tongue arch? You might not even be speeding up the air inside the mouth. Not usually. You see once the tongue raises up in the mouth the air will slip around the sides of the tongue and escape. About the only way to actually speed up the air in the mouth would be to make a perfect seal with the tongue and sides of the upper teeth.
But in any case it has zero effect on the lips.
Whistling? Yes! Because whistling is a very open lip setting. This feeling probably is where the false idea of tongue arching started in the first place. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Yes, it is the lip vibrations that cause the air vibrations inside the mpc, and those vibrations also then cause the vibrations in the horn and inside the mouth.
The size and shape of the mouth cavity affects how well those vibrations can be created and maintained (similar to using valves to change the tubing length). Changing the tongue position is an important way of adjusting the 'inside mouth cavity' to support (and perhaps enhance) the vibrations.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| oxleyk wrote: | What a shame. This thread was so peacefully dead.
Kent |
...and 5 years later.... same scenario !
Btw, Best wishes to everybody  |
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rothman
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Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 329
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Guy with an unusually low upper palate (some say)...the thought being there was a type of 'supercharged' resonant chamber waiting to unleash..
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0KYmElnOD0Y |
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kozzicomma
Regular Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2018
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Forgive me if I've missed some responses that may correct what I'm about to say, but there's some bad physics information in this thread and some general misunderstanding. I think people are confusing pressure (psi) with air velocity and, in turn, pitch. If you close the aperture pressure WILL decrease because you're creating more restriction on the air stream. However, velocity will actually INCREASE. Air velocity, as regards trumpet playing, is what makes the lips vibrate faster and thus an increase in pitch. Pressure is involved in this whole interaction, but is not the direct source of changes of pitch. This is a basic fluid dynamics problem unless you count the irregularities in embouchure types (which will turn it into a rather complicated problem), but simply said "smaller orifice = lower pressure and higher velocity" and vice versa. Smaller orifice includes the whole mouth (lips, mouth cavity, etc.). |
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LSOfanboy
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Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| kozzicomma wrote: | | Forgive me if I've missed some responses that may correct what I'm about to say, but there's some bad physics information in this thread and some general misunderstanding. I think people are confusing pressure (psi) with air velocity and, in turn, pitch. If you close the aperture pressure WILL decrease because you're creating more restriction on the air stream. However, velocity will actually INCREASE. Air velocity, as regards trumpet playing, is what makes the lips vibrate faster and thus an increase in pitch. Pressure is involved in this whole interaction, but is not the direct source of changes of pitch. This is a basic fluid dynamics problem unless you count the irregularities in embouchure types (which will turn it into a rather complicated problem), but simply said "smaller orifice = lower pressure and higher velocity" and vice versa. Smaller orifice includes the whole mouth (lips, mouth cavity, etc.). |
Hi,
From my perspective I think you have that completely wrong. Air velocity isn't the decisive factor in pitch- just trying playing a note and increasing the speed of the air, without any change elsewhere, and you will find the note (most likely) simply crescendos rather than rises in pitch.
Your statement that 'air pressure decreases as pitch rises' is incorrect, the air pressure must rise (this is primarily done by increasing the internal resistance in order to stimulate compression).
All the best |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3302
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps the location where the air pressure is being measured needs to be considered:
- inside the mouth - before the aperture
- within the aperture itself (Bernoulli principle?)
- inside the mpc
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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roccotrumpetsiffredi
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Joined: 04 Jul 2015
Posts: 169
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Good grief, analysis equals paralysis.
With all that in mind, how are you supposed to make music?
Dear beginning trumpeters, pls don't read this thread:) |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3302
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| roccotrumpetsiffredi wrote: | Good grief, analysis equals paralysis.
...
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Sometimes that's true, but if a person doesn't think about what is happening, how can they explain it, or instruct someone else?
A good teacher/coach knows the 'analysis', can detect flaws, and offers constructive and understandable advise.
"just DO it" isn't always the right answer.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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