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Adam Rapa reveals his secret.


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kozzicomma
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
Hi,

From my perspective I think you have that completely wrong. Air velocity isn't the decisive factor in pitch- just trying playing a note and increasing the speed of the air, without any change elsewhere, and you will find the note (most likely) simply crescendos rather than rises in pitch.

Your statement that 'air pressure decreases as pitch rises' is incorrect, the air pressure must rise (this is primarily done by increasing the internal resistance in order to stimulate compression).

All the best


As I said, there's some bad physics information here LOL. Increase in velocity is absolutely related to increase in pitch and in turn causes a decrease in pressure. It's just basic fluid mechanics. Sorry that it isn't intuitive, but it's just how nature works. You said "Air velocity isn't the decisive factor in pitch, etc. etc." No, it's not the ONLY factor, but it is the main factor. Be careful not to confuse an increase in fluid flow volume (quantity flow rate) with velocity, because these are mutually exclusive (another fundamental fluid mechanics problem). Increase in quantity flow rate = increase pressure and increase sound volume (dB). Increase velocity = decreased pressure and decrease quantity flow rate, but increase in lip vibration and thus pitch. Sure, you have to hold the aperture still to achieve that, which is why i stated that the problem can get much more complicated from a physics standpoint if you throw in all the other variables. However, excluding these other variables, there's nothing magical about trumpet playing that allows you to avoid the fundamentals of fluid mechanics. If this isn't enough, I'll start throwing some fluid mechanics formulas at you and see if that sticks :-p
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kozzicomma wrote:
Quote:
Increase in velocity is absolutely related to increase in pitch and in turn causes a decrease in pressure. It's just basic fluid mechanics.


Pitch is not related to velocity or pressure. These both can vary on a constant pitch.

Also, an increase in the flow velocity will reduce the static pressure but the total pressure will remain constant. (neglecting viscous effects)

The air velocity through the aperture also varies during the pulsation cycle.

Quote:
You said "Air velocity isn't the decisive factor in pitch, etc. etc." No, it's not the ONLY factor, but it is the main factor.


No. The state of the aperture is what determines the pitch. The average (RMS) velocity of air thru the aperture would vary with loudness as would flow.

Quote:
Be careful not to confuse an increase in fluid flow volume (quantity flow rate)


Fluid flow volume? That is not an accurate description. "Air flow" is sufficient. Perhaps you are referring to volumetric flow, which is, by definition a "rate". "Flow rate" is a redundant phrase.

Quote:
Increase in quantity flow rate = increase pressure and increase sound volume (dB).


Not exactly. Sound volume depends on power input x efficiency. The power that a player applies to playing is the air pressure x air flow. The sound power is power applied x efficiency.

(Efficiency is = total sound power achieved / air power applied)

So the primary control of loudness is the air pressure applied by the player. The air flow also does then vary since the playing system has a particular resistance. It is best that the dominant resistance be from the acoustic impedance of the instrument, not the aperture. Otherwise the playing is less efficient.

You make a common error in your interpretation of the Bernoulli law. The air pressure total is constant, regardless of velocity. Only specifically static pressure reduces with velocity.

Regardless, the concept that air velocity is the main factor of pitch is simply a popular myth.
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rothman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some gifted engineers present on the thread...a brilliant discussion of the mechanics that are generally, not well known.

kozzicomma wrote:

If this isn't enough, I'll start throwing some fluid mechanics formulas at you and see if that sticks.
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trUMBet67
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only variable that determine the pitch is the vibration frequency of the lips.
The lips can vibrate at one frequency in infinite variations of other (not necessary independent) parameters, such as air pressure and average velocity through the lips aperture, for example.
About the lips and their aperture there is an infinity of shape, in 3d, they can vibrate, and this has direct influence on the harmonics.
Also you have to think about the whole system, because your internal air volume (mouth cavity, lungs cavity) and shape and their resonance related to mouthpiece-instrument-ambient, so one single note sounds "effortless" when a resonance is established from interior cavities and the resto out of the lips.
The lesson I learned in the last years is: mechanics is important to understand.
BUT: you ultimately have to go by sound and best effort for that sound.
Too many variables determine the sound. Too difficult to act on a single parameter.
You learn "indirectly", from this point of view.
About the first post now it's clear that Adam Rapa just found a "trick", or "a way" in the sense of japanese "budo", that works well for him.
A single thing that takes care of all parameters involved without worry about all of them.
Some other (you know who was) said "sound".
I think both have same value as best "shortcuts" for better music. If you practice well, etc etc...
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG this is a walking dead thread. It'll never die.

Here's a novel idea:

Forget about all this stuff. Clear your brain.

Now, get your horn out, and start on a low F# (beneath the staff). Slur up to the C# above it and then to the middle F# in the staff, maintaining the 1-2-3 valve fingering. While doing this, pay attention to what you do with the air, your tongue arch (if any) and your lips. Now do it again, paying attention to everything, and this time slur up one note higher to the A# (still keep all the valves down). Notice how you have to blow a little stronger, perhaps arch your tongue up a little and perhaps tighten your lips a little more to click up to the A#. No arguments here about tongue arch or lip tension - this is you! Just pay attention to what you do! In this register you might not feel your tongue arching or your lips tightening or moving much if at all. You'll probably do feel at least one of these things happening though. What ever. The point is to pay attention and learn from yourself what you do to slur up to higher notes.

Now, do the exercise again, but slur up through the harmonics to the middle C#. Then again to the E. And finally to the F# on top the staff (still fingered with all three valves). All the time, paying attention to what you do with your air power, your tongue arch, and your lips to click up to the higher notes.

Start the whole exercise over again, but this time start on the middle F# and work your way up as high as you comfortably can (perhaps to the F# above High C if you can reach it), all the while paying attention to what you do to reach the higher notes.

What you are doing with the above exercise is learning the feel of the extreme upper register through extrapolation. Because what we do to slur up to a Double High C is simply an exacerbation of what we do to slur up to a High C (note though that strength development probably needs to occur in the blowing, lip and tongue muscles to reach a DHC). There is nothing magical or mysterious about the extreme upper register. It is simply "more of the same". What we do to slur from a High C to the G above it is just a continuation of what we did to slur from the G on top the staff to that High C.

I am hoping my post here helps some people find how to reach the higher notes they can't reach yet - something this thread so far is not likely to do.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
...
Now, do the exercise again, but slur up through the harmonics to the middle C#. Then again to the E. And finally to the F# on top the staff (still fingered with all three valves). All the time, paying attention to what you do with your air power, your tongue arch, and your lips to click up to the higher notes.
...

---------------------------------------------
Yes, paying attention to what 'works for you' is important to know so that you can do it on a regular basis. But it doesn't help identify the 'new things' that perhaps need to be done to achieve those 'next steps'.
If 'high range playing' is completely dependent on unique aspects of each individual, then is it really possible to 'teach' someone else?

Jay
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
...
Now, do the exercise again, but slur up through the harmonics to the middle C#. Then again to the E. And finally to the F# on top the staff (still fingered with all three valves). All the time, paying attention to what you do with your air power, your tongue arch, and your lips to click up to the higher notes.
...

---------------------------------------------
Yes, paying attention to what 'works for you' is important to know so that you can do it on a regular basis. But it doesn't help identify the 'new things' that perhaps need to be done to achieve those 'next steps'.
If 'high range playing' is completely dependent on unique aspects of each individual, then is it really possible to 'teach' someone else?

Jay


Hi Jay,

I think you missed the point I made about using extrapolation. Using the exercise I outlined is not about maintaining what one can now do so they can continue doing it on a regular basis. It is about using extrapolation to learn what to do to continue up through the range and find the "knack" or "feel" of higher notes the player cannot currently play.

And high range playing is not completely dependent on unique aspects of each individual. There is only one correct way to play, and that includes the playing of the upper register. What happens inside each successful player is the same even though different embouchures may look different on the outside. There are different ways to learn to play correctly, but they all lead to the same place.

Cheers,

John
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kozzicomma wrote:
...... there's some bad physics information here ......

+1
Very true statement, and all that bad physics is YOU ------> kozzicomma <------

In fact your physics descriptions are sooooo "arm-waving" (I am being polite here), I am not going bother spending my time correcting it. Others have pretty much done that already.

I could put "the math" with it, but I fully suspect it would be waaaaay over your head.

Hope this helps, but I doubt it.

Cheers,
Harry
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I tried...
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Well, I tried...

+1

Yes, we need a "LIKE" button
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trUMBet67
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Well, I tried...


but seriously... Why?
We love this things from time to time...

I'm also graduate in phisycs, so sometimes just can't resist to add some points when someone makes "it's just physics" statement. The physic model of trumpet playing is not simple, and not nearly complete. And if it ever would be, maybe not very useful.

Sometimes very good ideas appear here and there. The exercise you mentioned, John, is very useful, in my opinion. Thank you.
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trUMBet67
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
kozzicomma wrote:
...... there's some bad physics information here ......

+1
Very true statement, and all that bad physics is YOU ------> kozzicomma <------

In fact your physics descriptions are sooooo "arm-waving" (I am being polite here), I am not going bother spending my time correcting it. Others have pretty much done that already.

I could put "the math" with it, but I fully suspect it would be waaaaay over your head.

Hope this helps, but I doubt it.

Cheers,
Harry


"like"
Thank you Harry.
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rothman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...edit

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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:40 pm    Post subject: Yes Virginia, it's just a "simple" Bode Plot Reply with quote

trUMBet67 wrote:
The physic model of trumpet playing is not simple, and not nearly complete.......

+1

The physics (dynamics) model of the trumpet is a transfer function that can be mathematically measured and then plotted in the form of the trumpet's Bode plot. Indeed misleadingly "simple enough".

However this Bode plot is different for each trumpet, in that the parameters that determine it, are not very measurable nor controllable. Therefore indeed not very simple and not very complete.

However, I suspect that modern trumpet manufacturers make very much use of these Bode models.

Things get very complicated and for sure not very measurable is when we connect the three transfer functions in series: trumpet, mouthpiece and the player.

The overall Bode plot of these three connected transfer functions is not only being altered by different mouthpieces and different players, by may alter on the spur of a moment for any given player, because of the always variability of the player him or herself.

Bottom line, indeed not very useful for us.
trUMBet67 wrote:
......... and if it ever would be, maybe not very useful..
+1
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Yes Virginia, it's just a "simple" Bode Plot Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:

Bottom line, indeed not very useful for us.


Heh heh yep I agree with THAT!

Another physics type here and I can confirm that knowledge of physics is completely orthogonal to trumpet playing. I would agree with what John Mohan said earlier that successful players all arrive at the same place but the body mechanics required to get there are much more individual. You can (and I did) play for 20 years with broken mechanics and be good but you will never play Brandenburg 2. Getting the mechanics in an art and honestly I don't think there is a method or path there - you find it yourself, all the better if a teacher can give you "warmer" or "colder" clues based on sound. I imagine it's like hitting a golf ball or a baseball sweetly or executing an soccer bicycle kick... you have to just grok how to do it. No-one can micromanage you through the process. Good luck!!
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Yes Virginia, it's just a "simple" Bode Plot Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:
Harry Hilgers wrote:

Bottom line, indeed not very useful for us.


Heh heh yep I agree with THAT!

Another physics type here and I can confirm that knowledge of physics is completely orthogonal to trumpet playing.


I had to go look up "orthogonal."
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trUMBet67 wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Well, I tried...


but seriously... Why?
We love this things from time to time...

I'm also graduate in phisycs, so sometimes just can't resist to add some points when someone makes "it's just physics" statement. The physic model of trumpet playing is not simple, and not nearly complete. And if it ever would be, maybe not very useful.

Sometimes very good ideas appear here and there. The exercise you mentioned, John, is very useful, in my opinion. Thank you.


Glad to be of help!

And you are absolutely right about the whole physics thing. Makes for an interesting discussion, is too complicated and misapplied most of the time (all of the time?), and won't create a single player.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Yes Virginia, it's just a "simple" Bode Plot Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:
Harry Hilgers wrote:

Bottom line, indeed not very useful for us.


Heh heh yep I agree with THAT!

Another physics type here and I can confirm that knowledge of physics is completely orthogonal to trumpet playing. I would agree with what John Mohan said earlier that successful players all arrive at the same place but the body mechanics required to get there are much more individual. You can (and I did) play for 20 years with broken mechanics and be good but you will never play Brandenburg 2. Getting the mechanics in an art and honestly I don't think there is a method or path there - you find it yourself, all the better if a teacher can give you "warmer" or "colder" clues based on sound. I imagine it's like hitting a golf ball or a baseball sweetly or executing an soccer bicycle kick... you have to just grok how to do it. No-one can micromanage you through the process. Good luck!!


Another great post!
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rothman
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Increasing volume of sound :
___

"The mute does not allow the trumpet to transfer as much sound energy to the outside air. The mute dampens the amplitude of the sound wave. Since air is a fluid the waves that pass through it are compression waves. The more air molecules get squeezed together or concentrated together the louder the sound. Pitch differences are created by compressions that are closer together. If you ever played with tuning forks or a guitar you can see the vibration. To make the fork or string louder you must strike it with more energy. You can see the string or metal vibrate in a large displacement from the resting position. These vibrating materials create vibrations that squeeze more air together and the process increases the air's density and to do this creates regions of rarefaction (less dense air) and this what we experience as louder sounds because the air vibrates our ear structures in a like manner. The mute keeps you from transmitting the compressions and rarefactions with the same density, it dampens the horn's vibrating air column.'

'Concerning your idea about the mouthpiece seems to be valid, but you are not thinking of the correct structure. It is the lips' aperture that changes, of course, it not the mouthpiece. You force more air through the lips and this blows the aperture wider or makes a bigger hole. Get a visualizer and you will see this effect. To produce higher notes we need a smaller aperture or air compression of the air to make it go faster but the goal is not to really increase how fast the air goes through the horn but to increase the number of vibration per second and that is what the faster air does. You can see to explain the physics is not easy.'

'So I can't blame you for coming to some interesting conclusions based on how you think about your experiences. The reason overblowing is such a problem that it blows the aperture apart and either and to play a loud high note forces people are not efficient players to do two or more things: 1. Squeeze the lips together more tightly to increase the frequency of the vibrations. 2. Push the horn and face together to cause the lips to increase the frequency. Both are ways of smashing the buzzer."


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trUMBet67
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: Yes Virginia, it's just a "simple" Bode Plot Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:

Another physics type here and I can confirm that knowledge of physics is completely orthogonal to trumpet playing.


Orthogonal...
I suspect we both had similar experiences about this...
But not too seriously! In decades I learned something about mechanics, I'm more "efficient" and in some way I can manage the less and less time to practice.
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