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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: Short shank Conn cornet m.p.'s |
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I have no mouthpiece for a 1929 Conn Victor Cornet and they say modern length cornet m.p.'s aren't optimal for pre 1955 Conn cornets. Can a tech convert a modern shank mouthpiece to fit? Would that work well? What are the pre 1955 Conn cornet players on the TH doing for a mouthpiece? Thanks in advance for any replies.... _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Curry just came out with a blank specially designed for old Conns like this. See www.CurryMpc.com |
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RNJTrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2009 Posts: 398
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Love the Curry TC in my Victor...
Kanstul also has the specs for the early Conn cornets, its a stock backbore - so no waiting, but you have to pick a stock cup. |
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Indian Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2008 Posts: 364 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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Another option is to buy a vintage mouthpiece to fit your vintage horn. Conn and Bach both made short shank mouthpieces for the old Conn cornets. I have bought several off of eBay for $10.00-30.00. All have been in excellent shape and fit the Victor cornet reciever perfectly. One was gold plated, yep the $30.00 one ... _________________ Rob,
King Liberty SilverTone
King Liberty Super 20
Conn Vocabell 40A - 40B - 80A - 81A - 38A -Victor - 22B - 12B Coprion bell - 16B,
Getzen Tone Balanced Super Deluxe
Holton French LeBlanc - Al Hirt 550
Olds Studio - Special
Besson 10-10 |
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Bob Stevenson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 1139 Location: Essex, England
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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A good repair man or even a small engineering firm will be able to turn down a modern mpc to fit the older cornets. Denis Wick mpcs have got steadily bigger since they first appeared in the 1960's (when they fitted older cornet models as well as new ones) in at least four increments as shown in this pix with oldest at left;
Here is a new Denis Wick mpc turned down to fit older cornets;
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plp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Warburton also can make a turned down outer shank that works, in either the BC or standard cornet shanks. The BC isn't that far off as stock. _________________ Since all other motivesfame, money, power, even honorare thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it. Wayne Booth |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone for the great suggestions. My horn, coming from 1929, might even need a shorter short shank according to the Conn Loyalist website. I've got my eye on this one....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220518344093&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
....but I've no idea what #39 means in terms of specs. Does anyone know about this mouthpiece? Thanks again for any replies.... _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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Zachary Regular Member
Joined: 06 Mar 2010 Posts: 13
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think you'll find info on what the "#39" means -- actually, I doubt that's stamped on the mouthpiece. You might want to email the guy, see where he's getting the number from; maybe it's just a number he uses to keep his stock straight?
That said, the piece in the auction you reference should work well with your horn, it has the right look. Any that look like that and say 'CONN-MODEL' or 'CONN-WONDER' will work. Comparing those two, the WONDER has a slightly deeper cup and flatter rim and very slightly wider cup diameter. There are other pieces out there that would work, but I don't have direct experience with them (there was a 'Levy' not too long ago on eBay, I've seen the contoured-rim 'H L Clarke' model a few times, and there's an AI-412 (visible embouchure 'Pechin' model) that was on eBay recently, too.)
I have way too much experience with vintage Conn cornet mouthpieces from when I was hunting down appropriate pieces for my 1892 Conn Wonder (which needs entirely different mouthpieces than you'd need; fun, no?), but as a result of that I can tell you that appropriate vintage pieces do seem to work best with the old Conns.
--Zachary |
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missmybaby Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Sep 2009 Posts: 365 Location: North of Detroit
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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I use a Conn 1 on my 1930 80A.
The picture below shows the difference in lettering orientation to quickly identify the correct shank for your horn. You want one like the bottom, if you go with Conn. The Wonder mpc should be fine, too, if you want a cookie-cutter... I have never tried a Wonder, though, so I'm not 100% on that.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/ConnArticle34.html
_________________ "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." |
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connicalman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 1668 Location: West Medford, MA
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Nice pics of the old and older Conn mpcs. Worth 1000 words. Its not only the taper, it is the shorter shorts that fit these cornets best. Getting sharp enough to ensure A = 440 is a challenge otherwise.
In the meanwhile, beware. Each mpc will make your New Wonder sing differently. While it has been 100% worth my time to acclimate to the Wick 4 for a small ensemble / church horn sound, one which doesn't drown out a solo voice or a small choir, these old 80A's are chameleons. They will go where you take them. Mpc sensitive, in a good way.
FWIW, the Conn 4 gives an edge to their projection and length to their feel. Last, maybe that #39 is just that seller's stock #.
Enjoy your venture! _________________ kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A... |
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missmybaby Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Sep 2009 Posts: 365 Location: North of Detroit
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I read somewhere the Conn 4 is very similar to a Bach 10-1/2C. I only mention that because you will see a lot of Conn 4's on ebeigh, so if you don't like the 10-1/2C, you may want to pass on the Conn 4. I've yet to find a reference to what my Conn 1 is equivalent to, but I am used to it now. A Wick or Curry are on my short list to try. _________________ "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." |
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connicalman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 1668 Location: West Medford, MA
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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The Conn 4 may be about the same diameter as the smaller VB, as referenced above. The VB plays much smaller to me than does the Conn. Apologies to missmybaby, who provided the pics of the 2 Conn cornet pieces.
The Wick 4B drops deeper directly off the rim than does the Conn 4, both for the trumpet and cornet mpcs. It is a heavier mpc, esp for the trumpet version, so you get some good bang for your buck in projection.
I got my tpt. & cornet mpcs mixed up by feel. The VB 10.5 & Connie 9B-N are tiny in the tmpt, to me. The VB 10.5 cornet mpc is a MtV, and it feels bigger than its trmpt cousin. _________________ kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A... |
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RNJTrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2009 Posts: 398
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: |
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I have a Conn 4, its actually a nice piece - for me it plays similar to a Bach 7 rim (not sure of the cup).
I typically play Bach/Curry 5 rims and I have little problem swittching back and forth. A Bach 10 1/2 C is too small for me. My teacher plays a Bach 6 and he was very comfortable using the Conn 4. Just my experience.
I purchased the Kanstul copy of the Conn shank with a Bach 5C cup, it sounds and plays completely different (and better) than when I use a long shank Bach 5C on my 80A. To me the Kanstul still sounds 'cornetty' even with the c cup. Its nice to have the Conn 4 and B5C though, they produce very different sounds.
I bought the Kanstul copy before I realized Curry made the Conn short shank, if I had known, I would have ordered the Curry 5TC (I'm using the standard shank TC which doesn't fit quite right...but sounds amazing!). |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Jim New at mouthpieces@kanstul.com has the specs for a threaded, short-shank bottom which he can make to fit the top of your choice.
The specs are based on a mouthpiece he made for Christine Derksen of The Conn Loyalist who needed the right mouthpiece for one or more of her older Conns.
I chose this approach to help me get the best sound from my 1955 Conn 80A. Works great! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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gjarrell Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2010 Posts: 175 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Mouthpiece Express will machine and replate the shank of you mouthpiece, but will need the horn or a leadpipe, for around $20 plus shipping. A Curry TC or Vintage would sound very nice in your horn. |
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stomvi2000 Regular Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 56 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Does anybody have any idea if the Curry Conn short shank mouthpiece would be any better in a vintage Conn than his VC line of cornet mouthpieces?
thanks. |
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RNJTrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2009 Posts: 398
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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stomvi2000 wrote: | Does anybody have any idea if the Curry Conn short shank mouthpiece would be any better in a vintage Conn than his VC line of cornet mouthpieces?
thanks. |
My guess is you would buy the VC with the Conn short shank vs his VC standard shank.
I tried my TC standard shank in my 80A and it works great, but it doesn't fit quite right in the receiver. I'm not sure it would play any better with the Conn shank, but it would definitely fit better. The VC shank is shorter than the TC, so maybe that one fits better in the vintage Conn. His website says intonation is better with the Conn shank.
I have the Kanstul Conn shank with a Bach 5C top and it definitely plays better than a standard shank Bach 5C.
Not exactly the answer you are looking for, but I hope the info helps! |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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hmmmm
not sure what's going on with those wicks, but a short shank conn is bigger around than a long shank conn.
So you would be able to turn a long shank into a short by turning it down. You would have to add material to make it bigger.
The main factor is the insertion length. That is dictated by outer diameter of the shank.
One thing that works pretty well is very simply cutting off a tenth of an inch from a long shank stem. You end up with the right OD, and the right insertion length. It plays pretty well too. And you can do it yourself. with no tools other than thinking. Totally easy.
DOug M _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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connicalman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 1668 Location: West Medford, MA
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, this old Victor New Wonder had a night to remember yesterday. To stay on topic, the DW 4 (which for some odd reason fits deeper, could be old taper NOS) kept me in tune as a Bb with the 30-odd strings plus 15 winds. Then the new piece arrived. In A. Zip da dee doo dah, one quick change and I was there. But sharp. Aha. Microtuner. Bingo.
The fanfare articulation for me is still a bit less than precise with the 4. It is deep, almost a flugel cup, so I'll sacrifice a 4B to the lathe down to Osmun's, in order to touch all bases. But the warmth of that old Conn, and the ease of range? Mmmmm mmmmm good.
Best of luck to you and yours, gents! _________________ kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A... |
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ConnArtist Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2008 Posts: 2831 Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
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Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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lipshurt wrote: | hmmmm
not sure what's going on with those wicks, but a short shank conn is bigger around than a long shank conn.
So you would be able to turn a long shank into a short by turning it down. You would have to add material to make it bigger.
The main factor is the insertion length. That is dictated by outer diameter of the shank.
One thing that works pretty well is very simply cutting off a tenth of an inch from a long shank stem. You end up with the right OD, and the right insertion length. It plays pretty well too. And you can do it yourself. with no tools other than thinking. Totally easy.
DOug M |
Given the number of old Conn horn owners out there... this oughta be made into a sticky! _________________ "Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
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