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"Distressed" Reunion Blues Bag Needs Therapy


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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: "Distressed" Reunion Blues Bag Needs Therapy Reply with quote

This is funny. I surfed over to the WWBW Website thinking about replacing my ancient Reunion Blues Single Bag. I've had it since 1977 and sometimes feel a little embarrassed by its condition.

I find that in addition to the current "Made In China" leather bag, Reunion Blues is now offering a "Distressed" (still Made In China) version of the bag to emulate the well worn look of bags like, well, bags like mine. And they charge more for it!!!

Their version:

https://media.music123.com/is/image/MMGS7/540-Distressed-Leather-Series-Single-Trumpet-Gig-Bag-Brown-Leather/581509000002000-00-750x750.jpg

My version of the real deal, made in San Francisco back when Reunion Blues was owned and run by Musicians, not corporate outsource-everything-overseas empty suits:


https://s25.postimg.org/fmq6o84zz/IMG_7526.jpg
Giant Alaskan Malamute Approved!


https://s25.postimg.org/52g95n0i7/IMG_7528.jpg


Needless to say, I've been convinced to keep using my bag.

Cheers,

John Mohan

P.S. Edited in 2017 to get images back into the post (imageshack.us stopped offering free image hosting and all my pictures there went POOF!) and besides, Samson likes posing for photos.


Last edited by John Mohan on Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:26 am; edited 3 times in total
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look here for the real deal, still made today by the founder/ex-owner of RB:
http://www.glenncronkhite.com/

MvW.
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Larry Smithee
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! Glenn Chronkhite has an email address? He finally joined the 20th century (not the 21st century, just the 20th).

I bought one of Glenn's post RB single trumpet bags about 10 years ago. They're great, just like the vintage ones. He didn't do email back then. You had to know somebody who knew somebody to find him.

Larry
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Yammie
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:56 am    Post subject: Nice bag! Reply with quote

John,

I've got one of similar vintage to yours, I'm guessing mine dates back to 1980ish, maybe a little earlier. The bags initially had the zipper that wraps around and under like yours does, and the pocket side was made with one piece of leather as is yours.

If you're looking for a new bag, Glenn Cronkhite makes beautiful bags and sometimes has some unusual leather to choose from. He made me a gorgeous single flugel bag from some yellowish tan camel leather - it's really striking.

He also has some pebbled grain British Tan leather on request for a few bucks more. I have a flugel/tpt double bag and a single trumpet made of it, and it has the look of the old tan bags with a little more character, but it's not "distressed"

Can you imagine the conversation at the Chinese factory when they decided to offer their distressed version? "Crazy Americans carry trumpets in these expensive leather bags, and now they want us to beat them up so we can charge MORE??"

I'll try and remember to post pics of some of my bags that Glenn made. He is a delight to work with, and his prices are very similar to what RB charges for the Chinese bags.
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Last edited by Yammie on Thu May 06, 2010 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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mdiceman
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This 1982 bag isn't as distressed as yours, but I often am when I pull out what's inside

I don't use it much anymore, as I have other preferred cases.
Memories.
Does this mean they're brothers? Twins separated at birth?
Cheers!



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iskeptici
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reunion Blues Reply with quote

hi guys,

My name is Dave Andrus, and I handle the product development for Reunion Blues. I picked up on this thread and felt like I had to respond. I'm not a trumpet player myself, but I play several instruments and have been a musician since I was 3 years old and my parents bought me my first drum. (insert drummer joke here.)

The meme that the "new" Reunion Blues is a faceless corporation run by empty suits is false. We are a small group of dedicated, passionate people and most of us are musicians.

I don't personally know Glenn Cronkhite but for some reason he has perpetuated this "evil corporation" myth due to bad blood with the previous owners of RB.

The truth is that we care a lot about what we do. We purchase leather from all over the world and often have to wait 2 months or more for custom tanning (like the distressed bag in the picture, which we made at the request of several customers looking to replace their old "worn" bags). We've also improved on the original RB designs in a number of ways, using the best of modern materials and equipment. (For example, we're using a dual layer high density foam, not the squishy open cell stuff found in the original RB models, and reinforced EVA panels instead of wood, since EVA doesn't break and is much lighter.) To make the same quality bag here in the US would cost double.

Anyway, I wasn't planning to give a sales pitch, but I did want to set the story straight. We work really hard to make the best product possible, and if we were really just "empty suits" I'd see a lot more of my family and probably have a lot more time to play music (which is why we're all here anyway.)

In any case, if you feel there's something we could do better, I welcome ideas from the field - especially from people like you who use these products every day.

You can email me directly anytime if you like - dave@reunionblues.com
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grizzle
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Reunion Blues Reply with quote

iskeptici wrote:
My name is Dave Andrus, and I handle the product development for Reunion Blues. I picked up on this thread and felt like I had to respond.

The meme that the "new" Reunion Blues is a faceless corporation run by empty suits is false. We are a small group of dedicated, passionate people and most of us are musicians.

I don't personally know Glenn Cronkhite but for some reason he has perpetuated this "evil corporation" myth due to bad blood with the previous owners of RB.

The truth is that we care a lot about what we do. We purchase leather from all over the world and often have to wait 2 months or more for custom tanning (like the distressed bag in the picture, which we made at the request of several customers looking to replace their old "worn" bags). We've also improved on the original RB designs in a number of ways, using the best of modern materials and equipment. (For example, we're using a dual layer high density foam, not the squishy open cell stuff found in the original RB models, and reinforced EVA panels instead of wood, since EVA doesn't break and is much lighter.) To make the same quality bag here in the US would cost double.

Anyway, I wasn't planning to give a sales pitch, but I did want to set the story straight. We work really hard to make the best product possible, and if we were really just "empty suits" I'd see a lot more of my family and probably have a lot more time to play music (which is why we're all here anyway.)


Dave--I noticed through Google that you "picked up on a thread" on a banjo forum, a saxophone forum, a trombone forum, etc...

So I have some REAL Reunion Blues business questions for you:

I was under the impression that WWBW owned RB. Did they sell it? Or do you work for the RB division within WWBW?

When you say "we" (10 times in your post), do you mean the guys in your division, or the factory workers in China/Vietnam/India actually doing the grunt work making these cases?

Have you visited the factories you use? Have you considered Fair Trade agreements? Do the factories you use make their workers work all 7 days a week or merely 6 days a week? How many hours a day do they require their labor to work? Are they fairly paid (living wage)? Do they have any health protections? Do your factories have a minimum age hiring cutoff, and if so, what is that age?

Are ANY of these considerations made when negotiating a contract with a factory to make your cases, or is it just quality, capacity, and price?

For the record, I am the Torpedo Bag guy, and I pay my line workers $14-15/hr, 40 hours a week. Most of my gear is made in the US, though I am negotiating a Fair Trade deal on my next purchase of Classics. I used overseas labor through 3rd and 4th parties when I first started, but I have huge ethical problems with using unverified 3rd world factory labor. I eventually had my injection moulds sent to Minneapolis from Taiwan.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And my horn is very happily in my torpedo classic right now, while I'm 300 miles from home! With all the idiots on the road at least I don't have to worry about my horn ...
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Yammie
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:05 am    Post subject: Quality Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't personally know Glenn Cronkhite but for some reason he has perpetuated this "evil corporation" myth due to bad blood with the previous owners of RB.


While it's not my place to speak for Glenn, I don't think the issue is with corporate ownership, I think it's with relocating production to China and displacing the US workers who previously made RB bags.

When I buy bags from Glenn, I can have them custom modified if needed and pick my choice of leather. And his prices are directly comparable to RB China prices. Regarding quality, I've looked at them side by side within the last few weeks, and in my mind there is no doubt Glenn's products are better quality.
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iskeptici
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steve,

I realize you have an agenda here, but you should make sure you know what you're talking about before posting.

First of all RB has no affiliation with WWBW, except that they buy some of our products. WWBW has never owned RB.

Secondly, I have been to our factories in China and Vietnam on multiple occasions. We are socially accredited and the conditions are no different than most factories I've visited in the US. Contrary to your suggestion, no one is being exploited in order to reduce the price. We've been working with the same partners for 25+ years and the factories work exclusively for us. As far as I am concerned they are an integral part of the "we" in my post.

We do have strict controls for quality, so you got me there.

It's commendable that you are able to manufacture most of your gear in the US. We explored this after purchasing the company but were unable to find a facility capable of meeting our quality standards. There just isn't enough skilled labor to make them the way we do.

Anyway, I wish you good luck. You are obviously passionate about what you do just like I am. That's what makes the music industry great.

It is a pretty small industry, though... so my only suggestion would be to think twice before throwing stones. In my experience that never bodes well.

If you're ever at the NAMM show come by and say hello.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the bottom line:

The corporate owners (decision makers) of the Reunion Blues company made a decision to "outsource" production of their product - a product previously made in the United States by American workers.

In choosing to do this, they are part of the problem for America. What's the problem? First, a one sentence summary of our history: Responsible capitalism (yes there is such a thing) at the corporate level, combined with a good work ethic on the part of the workers over a long period of time made this country the country with the highest standard of living in the world. Back to the problem: By choosing to outsource (and it is definitely a choice), they are helping to create a situation where our standard of living is brought down toward the level of other developing country's standards of living.

I've got nothing against Chinese, or other foreign people or cultures. I lived overseas for six years and loved the experience. But I, and many others like me have a big problem with the change in the corporate culture in recent times, especially in terms of outsourcing. This country is being destroyed – it’s being gutted from within.

In my opinion, outsourcing is a fancy way of saying "screw our own country and culture". And in my opinion, corporate decision-makers that choose this route are, to put it kindly, faceless suits.

I’m curious Dave, what’s the average monthly income of one of your Chinese factory workers?

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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Yammie
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:08 am    Post subject: Quality Reply with quote

Quote:
It's commendable that you are able to manufacture most of your gear in the US. We explored this after purchasing the company but were unable to find a facility capable of meeting our quality standards.


I find this statement interesting. I never noticed quality issues with Reunion Blues products until AFTER manufacturing moved to China. So you're saying outsourcing had nothing to do with price, only quality? In an earlier post you said that if you hadn't moved offshore your prices would have to double.
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_Daff
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Politics aren't allowed here, so the thread will likely get yanked, but before ripping on the guy, consider the irony in many here on TH rallying around Jupiter trumpets designed by a famous U.S. trumpet player, then manufactured in Taiwan. And, what about the famous U.S. trumpet player that designs trumpets made in Austria? Why isn't anyone ripping on them?

We're all struggling with the economic and social concepts of this ever-so-fast changing world, but I don't think it's fair to single anyone out.

Give the guy a break.
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gmaxe
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned old reunion blues bags, the new chinese ones, and cronkite bags. The chinese ones (new models) are not even close to the original in feel. Why does the new trumpet bag not allow a mute or a mouthpiece to fit anymore(it is not as long)? This feature was perfect when you had a gig that only required a cup mute.
Chronkite bags are streaks ahead of the current reunion blues.
When I was coming up all the pros used reunion blues bags.l still have my 25 year old flugel bag that is in incredible condition. The zips and hardware on the new single trumpet bag I had from R.Blues were not good.It made me very sad to see the company outsource and watch the quality change. But, thank goodness Glen is still making the real deal.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

_Daff wrote:
Politics aren't allowed here, so the thread will likely get yanked, but before ripping on the guy, consider the irony in many here on TH rallying around Jupiter trumpets designed by a famous U.S. trumpet player, then manufactured in Taiwan. And, what about the famous U.S. trumpet player that designs trumpets made in Austria? Why isn't anyone ripping on them?

We're all struggling with the economic and social concepts of this ever-so-fast changing world, but I don't think it's fair to single anyone out.

Give the guy a break.


Just for the record, I am not "ripping the guy", I made comments regarding a company's and in fact, any and all companys' decision(s) to outsource. I specifically referred to the "corporate owners (decision makers)" in my post. I don't think the gentleman from Reunion Blues that posted here was directly involved with the decision to outsource, and I'm sure he is a nice guy and a harder worker, as were the folks that used to make the bags here in the U.S.

And lastly, I have a Reunion Blues Triple Bag I bought around 1999, so I assume it is of Chinese manufacture. I wasn't aware that the company had outsourced at the time, and I might not have bought it had I known. But that said, it's a great bag and I've had no problems with it.

Best wishes,

John
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Fleebat
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Reunion Blues thing is strange. About three years ago, I ordered an RB single bag. I'd had several of their bags when I was traveling as a guitar player - they were always THE bag to have. I'm vehemently against the outsourcing thing, so when I received the bag & saw the China tag, I was a little angry. Did some research, found out about the company changing hands, Mr. Kronkite's new stuff, etc. So, because I thought I could probably use a second bag somehow & hate the outsourcing thing so much, I ordered a Kronkite from slide-whatever... one of the first websites to carry the Kronkites.

The second bag (a simple single, standard color & config) took 5 weeks to arrive. Slidebone's fault, I'm sure, but still...

Comparing the bags, mine don't seem to match some of the assessments I've read on the TH...

Chinese bag has:
1. Thicker leather
2. More substantial padding
3. Softer lining
4. A far more substantial strap
5. A very stiff insert, sewn into the end, that protects the bell

My Kronkite has:
1. Much thinner leather than any RB I've owned
2. A funky zipper that's never been smooth
3. Several loose places in the stitching
4. Thinner handles
5. A cheesy strap (replaced it with another I had from a laptop case)
6. No insert in the end

I'd be the first one to suspect otherwise, given my disdain for outsourcing and preference for buying American. I don't like the way the bags stack up, but it's reality. Could just be my particular Kronkite bag. Like I said, I've read here that others have very different experiences. But... there it is. I'd like to get a bag for my flugel, but this experience has made me sit on the fence about it.

Edit: just did the mental math, and I bought the Chinese bag about five years ago - not three.

Rusty Russell
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veery715
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original post prompts me to suggest that John Mohan put his genuine original use-stressed bag up for sale on the marketplace. Heck, John, you should be able to get enough for it to cover the purchase of a new bag made wherever you choose and a couple of mutes and maybe a mouthpiece or two, especially if you autograph it.

(this is tongue-in-cheek, arched or otherwise)

v
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Yammie
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:28 am    Post subject: Interesting Reply with quote

Rusty -

That's interesting info. All my Cronkhite bags have been ordered in the past two years or so, and all are reminiscent of the quality of the original Reunion Blues. I ordered directly from Glenn, and had my choice of leather. He even agreed to make me leather shoulder straps (at a slight extra cost) with the leather pad, as used on the very old original RB bags. I'm sorry your experience wasn't as good as mine. You may want to contact Glenn directly, as he stands behind his products very much.

One other factor is the type of leather used. Glenn normally uses smooth leather, as it is stiffer. But on request, he'll use pebble-grained leather, or what he refers to as dragon hide. It's got a great texture to it, it looks and feels wonderful, but it is also a softer leather. If you're ordering direct from him, he'll talk you through the differences and help you select what's right for your purposes.

Orignal RB single bags didn't have stiffeners in the bell, and neither do Cronkhites. That is a change made since the change in ownership. I have a Gard bag with a bell stiffener, and it's not a bad idea though it does add weight.

So my points, hopefully not political are:
1. Edited: Here's Glenn's only statement about RB, from his website:
"Glenn Cronkhite has been a professional musician since age 14. His cases began the gig bag industry. He founded Reunion Blues(tm) and designed, under licensing contract, the cases made in their San Francisco factory. He is no longer affiliated with RB(tm) or their trademark in any way. He keeps over 2000 patterns on file, and has a full line of stock and custom sizes in leather or fabric. His cases are manufactured and sold out of Berkeley, California. Most orders are shipped within two weeks. Glenn also accepts repair work on all his cases, including those made by RB(tm) in the U.S."

I added the bold highlighting because though it's off topic, Glenn repaired my original RB bag, similar in vintage to John's. My bag's carrying handles had gotten quite crunchy, and the zipper was very worn. He replaced the handles, the zipper, the trim leather where the zipper is sewn on, and the leather in the bottom of the bag (this was used only on the very early bags) as it had gotten stained from valve oil schmutz.

2. New RB guy stated they couldn't find a facility to make bags to their standards here in the US. I don't think that's an accurate statement taken in isolation. Add price in and it may be.
3. New RB guy stated earlier in the thread that if they made the bags in the US, they would have to double their prices. I'm curious how Glenn manages to sell his bags at prices comparable to RB China bags.
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grizzle
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew this would open a big can of worms...

Dave, I'm sorry that my questions were taken as "throwing stones." I really did think that RB was owned by WWBW, and was just looking for clarification.

I would also like to know the answers to the labor questions I asked. These were serious questions that we as consumers rarely think to ask. I admit, I could have been more polite in how some of them were posed, but they are still honest questions.

If I had stated uninformed ANSWERS to them myself, then that would have been throwing stones. But in asking them, I am giving you an opportunity to prove my suspicions wrong.

Please, prove me wrong: What do the line workers earn? How many hours a week do they work? How many days a week do they work? What is the minimum age that the factories will hire?

I think I asked 9 questions, and you answered only the four that put RB in a good light:

WWBW does not have a financial stake in RB. Check.
You have visited the factories. Check.
You speak for the line workers when you say, "We." Check. (Do they also consider you one of them? -- new question.)
Quality and (it seems) capacity was a consideration in outsourcing. Check.

How about the real questions? And I am NOT throwing stones--I know it's a small world (which is why I pay a living wage, pursue Fair Trade agreements, etc....). I am asking real serious questions about your company's practices. I am not answering them for you, nor am I suggesting answers to them. That is up to you.
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camel
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Here's the bottom line:

The corporate owners (decision makers) of the Reunion Blues company made a decision to "outsource" production of their product - a product previously made in the United States by American workers.

In choosing to do this, they are part of the problem for America. What's the problem? First, a one sentence summary of our history: Responsible capitalism (yes there is such a thing) at the corporate level, combined with a good work ethic on the part of the workers over a long period of time made this country the country with the highest standard of living in the world. Back to the problem: By choosing to outsource (and it is definitely a choice), they are helping to create a situation where our standard of living is brought down toward the level of other developing country's standards of living.

I've got nothing against Chinese, or other foreign people or cultures. I lived overseas for six years and loved the experience. But I, and many others like me have a big problem with the change in the corporate culture in recent times, especially in terms of outsourcing. This country is being destroyed – it’s being gutted from within.

In my opinion, outsourcing is a fancy way of saying "screw our own country and culture". And in my opinion, corporate decision-makers that choose this route are, to put it kindly, faceless suits.

I’m curious Dave, what’s the average monthly income of one of your Chinese factory workers?

Sincerely,

John Mohan


You know: Reunion Blues outsourced because labour in America would be expensive. If they wouldn't have done that, you would be talking about the high prices...
So you do not care for American product, you care for your wallet.

And just for the record: when I say you, I mean everybody.
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