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"Distressed" Reunion Blues Bag Needs Therapy


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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

camel wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Here's the bottom line:

The corporate owners (decision makers) of the Reunion Blues company made a decision to "outsource" production of their product - a product previously made in the United States by American workers.

In choosing to do this, they are part of the problem for America. What's the problem? First, a one sentence summary of our history: Responsible capitalism (yes there is such a thing) at the corporate level, combined with a good work ethic on the part of the workers over a long period of time made this country the country with the highest standard of living in the world. Back to the problem: By choosing to outsource (and it is definitely a choice), they are helping to create a situation where our standard of living is brought down toward the level of other developing country's standards of living.

I've got nothing against Chinese, or other foreign people or cultures. I lived overseas for six years and loved the experience. But I, and many others like me have a big problem with the change in the corporate culture in recent times, especially in terms of outsourcing. This country is being destroyed – it’s being gutted from within.

In my opinion, outsourcing is a fancy way of saying "screw our own country and culture". And in my opinion, corporate decision-makers that choose this route are, to put it kindly, faceless suits.

I’m curious Dave, what’s the average monthly income of one of your Chinese factory workers?

Sincerely,

John Mohan


You know: Reunion Blues outsourced because labour in America would be expensive. If they wouldn't have done that, you would be talking about the high prices...
So you do not care for American product, you care for your wallet.

And just for the record: when I say you, I mean everybody.


Ah yes, but you quoted me. And I'm not part of that "everybody". I for one, would happily pay a bit more if it kept the original employees employed. And I seriously doubt it would double the cost of the bag. The cost of labor to make the product is not the predominant cost. Material, marketing, etc. take a big chunk of money. So even if hypothetically, the labor cost is doubled - or perhaps tripled - the ultimate cost to the consumer would not be doubled.

I see you're from Holland. I loved my time in your country when I was touring with "Grease". Wagamama in Amsterdam was a favourite eating hangout of the cast and band. Great noodles! And we were all always so hungry when in Amsterdam...

Best wishes,

John
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

camel wrote:
You know: Reunion Blues outsourced because labour in America would be expensive. If they wouldn't have done that, you would be talking about the high prices...
So you do not care for American product, you care for your wallet.

And just for the record: when I say you, I mean everybody.

It's true that people often want really low prices AND them to be made in the US. I'm not specifically referring to RB or trumpet cases or trumpet anything - just products in general. People whine about Wal Mart and the fact that 80 or 90% of the products in those stores are "made in China" yet they continue to shop in Wal Mart in droves. People talk about shopping elsewhere because of this, yet I believe that Wal Mart's sales have continued to increase overall. Of course, Wal Mart is hardly alone in this, they're just a good example.

Anyway - as to the RB cases, I haven't noticed any reduction in their prices since they've outsourced their production to Asia. One would assume that the costs of production have decreased because of this, yet their prices have remained more or less the same as far as I can tell. Others who have shopped and/or bought these cases more than me can perhaps lend their observations regarding prices.

As others have said - it's always up to the individual consumer. Where is he or she going to spend his money? What products and companies are going to be supported? Are you interested in quality or price? Are you willing to pay more for a locally or domestically produced product? This is something that each person decides every time they go shopping for anything.
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camel
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
camel wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
Here's the bottom line:

The corporate owners (decision makers) of the Reunion Blues company made a decision to "outsource" production of their product - a product previously made in the United States by American workers.

In choosing to do this, they are part of the problem for America. What's the problem? First, a one sentence summary of our history: Responsible capitalism (yes there is such a thing) at the corporate level, combined with a good work ethic on the part of the workers over a long period of time made this country the country with the highest standard of living in the world. Back to the problem: By choosing to outsource (and it is definitely a choice), they are helping to create a situation where our standard of living is brought down toward the level of other developing country's standards of living.

I've got nothing against Chinese, or other foreign people or cultures. I lived overseas for six years and loved the experience. But I, and many others like me have a big problem with the change in the corporate culture in recent times, especially in terms of outsourcing. This country is being destroyed – it’s being gutted from within.

In my opinion, outsourcing is a fancy way of saying "screw our own country and culture". And in my opinion, corporate decision-makers that choose this route are, to put it kindly, faceless suits.

I’m curious Dave, what’s the average monthly income of one of your Chinese factory workers?

Sincerely,

John Mohan


You know: Reunion Blues outsourced because labour in America would be expensive. If they wouldn't have done that, you would be talking about the high prices...
So you do not care for American product, you care for your wallet.

And just for the record: when I say you, I mean everybody.


Ah yes, but you quoted me. And I'm not part of that "everybody". I for one, would happily pay a bit more if it kept the original employees employed. And I seriously doubt it would double the cost of the bag. The cost of labor to make the product is not the predominant cost. Material, marketing, etc. take a big chunk of money. So even if hypothetically, the labor cost is doubled - or perhaps tripled - the ultimate cost to the consumer would not be doubled.

I see you're from Holland. I loved my time in your country when I was touring with "Grease". Wagamama in Amsterdam was a favourite eating hangout of the cast and band. Great noodles! And we were all always so hungry when in Amsterdam...

Best wishes,

John


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BAMBAM25LR
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last time I checked RB already charges a premium price for their products. I had a RB bag in high school and loved it. I have been thinking of getting another. Now I will pass.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I was going to buy a bag right now, this is where I'd buy from:

http://www.torpedobags.com/

I find this aspect of their case really enticing:



Note that I have no connection financial or otherwise with torpedobags.com.
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BAMBAM25LR
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John,

I just visited the website for torpedo bags. Their bags are priced close to the RB bags. They offer better protection and they are made in AMERICA.
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_Daff
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
Here's a car supported on four teacups.




Structurally, Torpedos are overkill. Not a bad thing for advertising, but how many of you are going to place your car on your case sandwiched between blocks of wood, especially when teacups do the trick?
.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GC is famious with larger brass instruments players.......First his fee is not that high when you start looking at what others charge for a Tuba or Euphonium case etc.......His stuff is top notch although not the prettiest to look at it is not due to quality issues or anything like that! I just mean the case's look a bit ugly but they do what they are meant to do!
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grizzle
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BAMBAM25LR wrote:
John, I just visited the website for torpedo bags. Their bags are priced close to the RB bags. They offer better protection and they are made in AMERICA.


Just so no one is misled--

All the leather Torpedo Bag gear has always been 100% USA, as well as the Coyote.

The other nylon cases (Classic & Single Outlaw) were sewn overseas and assembled here with a whole bunch of USA parts and labor. Previous to 2006 they were 100% imported--I never felt right about that.

We are within a week or two of running out of the 50% made-overseas Classics, and will make a few hundred of them 100% USA for the first time! These are being redesigned and improved. This means I will have only one product remaining made by labor I'm not proud of using.

After that, I am working on a fair trade deal directly with a sewing family in Latin America to sew them, probably to be assembled here as we've been doing for the last 3 years. The adult laborers will be paid DIRECTLY BY ME approximately 5X the going rate for local labor. This is how you compete with the big boys in a way that actually lifts third world poverty.

Someone earlier suggested that 3rd world labor might be 1/3 or so of what US labor would be. It is MUCH lower than that. For unskilled labor in Vietnam, for instance, annual international dollar wages (roughly = USD) are about $1000/year. That's $19 a week. The World Trade Organization, the World Bank, and Free Trade deals often stipulate that, for a country to get a WB loan, they have to outlaw any possibility of collective bargaining (not to mention environmental and health protections). So a poor country, desperate for cash investment, gets a loan for some billions of dollars, but screws its labor pool into permanent poverty. Meanwhile, the US labor pool has to compete with that country--well, ever wonder why our jobs keep getting outsourced and why our employment rate is 10% in general and much higher in these sectors? I could go on...

That's why Dave won't/can't answer my questions. That's why his original post irked me. To me, it seemed he was trying to position Reunion Blues as some sort of mom and pop organization. It is not. It is a small multinational corporation owned by a team of investors that use 3rd world labor to make pretty decent products cheaply. There are good "moms and pops" who work there, and I'm sure Dave is a fine person. But his company is what it is.

If you are OK with this business model (most everything you and I buy now days is made under this model--we know this), then my opinions might not sit well with you. But I think running a company this way is unethical and probably immoral on some levels, though profitable. I did this when I first started, without really thinking much about what I was doing. But I will not do it again and it will cost me a lot of money. I am proud of this choice.
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Skip
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here here Steve! +1
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TrptSTP
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a Torpedo classic is in my future. Well spoken indeed.

- Steve
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saxamattone
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently purchased a Torpedo Classic and couldn't be happier with the product. Or at least I thought I couldn't be happier. Since reading here about the business practices I have been reassured that I made the right decision in doing business with this company.

RB was one of the companies I was considering for my purchase but I wanted something that would offer superior protection.

For those that think the Torpedo being able to hold up a car is overkill and unnecessary, read the testimony on the Torpedo website about the trumpet that fell out of the bed of a truck and was run over.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

_Daff wrote:
Politics aren't allowed here, so the thread will likely get yanked, but before ripping on the guy, consider the irony in many here on TH rallying around Jupiter trumpets designed by a famous U.S. trumpet player, then manufactured in Taiwan. And, what about the famous U.S. trumpet player that designs trumpets made in Austria? Why isn't anyone ripping on them?

We're all struggling with the economic and social concepts of this ever-so-fast changing world, but I don't think it's fair to single anyone out.

I think what we're having here is a fair and honest discussion. I don't think anyone is "ripping" the fellow that posted here. He works for RB, I'm sure he's a nice guy, and he probably lives in the US and supports his family with his job. That's all great. I'm sure RB isn't an evil company, it's just a corporation trying to compete in the global marketplace.

As far as the points about Jupiter and the others...

Jupiter and the Austrian trumpet maker - these are companies that originated oversees and manufacture their instruments there as well. They never were US companies and haven't outsourced any of their jobs from the US - because they were never here. They're foreign companies - there's no mystery about that. If you don't want to buy a foreign made trumpet (which is fine) - then find a different brand. Lots of people only buy American cars, so this isn't too radical. If you've got the necessary info, then you can make your own decisions.

Reunion Blues on the other hand, used to be a domestic outfit, making all of it's products here. Now, it's looks like the same company (ie has the same name) but all of it's products are made oversees in Asia. Again, if you know this, you can choose to either buy their products or not. It's up to you.

As others (including myself) have said - this is hardly unique. Almost all of the products on the shelves of your local store were made elsewhere. You - the consumer - can decide were to spend your money and what companies and products to support when you go to the register.

grizzle wrote:
Someone earlier suggested that 3rd world labor might be 1/3 or so of what US labor would be. It is MUCH lower than that. For unskilled labor in Vietnam, for instance, annual international dollar wages (roughly = USD) are about $1000/year. That's $19 a week.

Quite interesting to have real figures. I'm curious what people paid for their vintage RB cases "back in the day" compared to what they cost now.

I found this example (look, it's John's case again!) at our usual internet conglomerate warehouse going for $149. It seems to me that they might be cheaper than they were before (considering inflation and such) so perhaps my previous statement wasn't quite right.

As a consumer you've always got a choice. Do you buy the $30 gig bag that's made somewhere? Do you buy the nice $150 leather bag from RB? Do you spend a bit more for a GC case? Do you buy a Torpedo bag even though you don't plan on using it to jack up your car? Maybe you'll just keep using what you've got. You'll have to decide what best meets your wants, needs, values, and budget.
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Torpedo Classic. It's a great case with excellent protection, just can't imagine what you're going to do to improve it Steve. Kevlar instead of nylon? Will the improvements be able to be retro-fit to my Classic? Love the made in USA!
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_Daff
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy, talk about digression ....

..... but yes Steve, I admire your drive to provide jobs to Americans in America. Two thumbs up man! (Need any help getting that car down? )
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

_Daff wrote:
Boy, talk about digression ....

Actually, if you read the OP - most of this seems remarkably on topic for a TH thread.
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_Daff
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm talking about mine.
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camel
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, I really appreciate your honesty about your company. And I respect the way you are working and changing things.

Next time I need a single case, I know how to find you
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well written and eloquent, Steve.

I appreciate all the information you've shared. If more people knew these facts, perhaps there would be less exploitation. Perhaps....

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Yammie
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:05 am    Post subject: No savings Reply with quote

Quote:
As a consumer you've always got a choice. Do you buy the $30 gig bag that's made somewhere? Do you buy the nice $150 leather bag from RB? Do you spend a bit more for a GC case?


So RB leather bags are $150 from WWBW? I just last week bought a new Glenn Cronkhite single trumpet bag, with an upgrade to British Tan pebble grain leather, and with shipping from CA to FL it totaled $171.
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