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HornnOOb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 897 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:20 pm Post subject: Excessive Water in My Horn - Advice Please!! |
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I'm a new player and it seems that I'm generating excessive water in m horn after. I blows both valves and all, but I'm getting water coming out the bell AND from the bottom of the bottm valve caps. The water is slogging-down my tone quality in a big way. I am able to produce a pretty decent sound quality -- all things considered. But about half my plying is hampered by degraded tone quality attributed to excessive water.
I'm spending too much time trying to purge the water out of the horn.
Is there something I can do / practice that will reduce the amount of water / spit that I'm making?
I would appreciate any similar experiences / cures.
Thanks! _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Severinsen Destino 3*
1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special Cornet
Denis Wick 1C Heavytop
Getzen Flugel 3C |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Stop drinking so much water.
That 8 glasses a day is urban legend.
Tom
edit: If you're blowing water out the bottom of the valves, that horn might be crap. Get it checked out by someone competent. _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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JoeCool Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 2238 Location: Wimberley, TX
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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It happens to me a lot when I play in the pool or the tub for some reason...ha ha ha...
Seriously, if you are playing in cold air like an air conditioned room or outside and its cooler or cold, you will be contending with condensation. _________________ Joe |
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HornnOOb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 897 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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JoeCool wrote: | It happens to me a lot when I play in the pool or the tub for some reason...ha ha ha...
Seriously, if you are playing in cold air like an air conditioned room or outside and its cooler or cold, you will be contending with condensation. |
Yeah, I know about condensation, but I'm getting excessive water. I wonder if I'm spitting too much when I blow? IS that a typical issue for new players? _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Severinsen Destino 3*
1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special Cornet
Denis Wick 1C Heavytop
Getzen Flugel 3C |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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HornnOOb wrote: | JoeCool wrote: | It happens to me a lot when I play in the pool or the tub for some reason...ha ha ha...
Seriously, if you are playing in cold air like an air conditioned room or outside and its cooler or cold, you will be contending with condensation. |
Yeah, I know about condensation, but I'm getting excessive water. I wonder if I'm spitting too much when I blow? IS that a typical issue for new players? |
Approximately none of it is spit, it's condensation from your breath.
Work from there.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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JonB Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2009 Posts: 314 Location: Winnipeg
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Getzen 300 that used to leak like a sieve from the bottom caps. It wasn't a very good horn. _________________ Jon
Yamaha Xeno 8335RGS |
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HornnOOb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 897 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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VetPsychWars wrote: | HornnOOb wrote: | JoeCool wrote: | It happens to me a lot when I play in the pool or the tub for some reason...ha ha ha...
Seriously, if you are playing in cold air like an air conditioned room or outside and its cooler or cold, you will be contending with condensation. |
Yeah, I know about condensation, but I'm getting excessive water. I wonder if I'm spitting too much when I blow? IS that a typical issue for new players? |
Approximately none of it is spit, it's condensation from your breath.
Work from there.
Tom |
Maybe I'm playing too loud -- too much hot air? _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Severinsen Destino 3*
1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special Cornet
Denis Wick 1C Heavytop
Getzen Flugel 3C |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:02 am Post subject: |
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This happened to me while using Al Cass valve oil. I stopped using it and the uber-condensation stopped. Something in the chemical makeup seems to promote the build-up of excessive moisture.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2532 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:14 am Post subject: |
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New horn? IF so, this happens. I have a Monette Bb that water flew out of the bell when I played it when it was new.
Put a drop or two of good valve oil down the leadpipe, and keep the bore oiled.
If an old horn, sounds like it needs a good chem cleaning. _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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starkadder Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 542
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: |
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When I started playing I had the same problem. Sometimes I though my cornet must be drowning, I emptied so much water from the bell. As my playing changed with experience, I noticed I generated a more reasonable amount of spit.
Don't worry about it. It is just an artefact of how you play now. Concentrate on how you sound and feel when you play, not the puddle at your feet, and be glad you don't play French horn! It seems they have to do acrobatics to drain their tubing. |
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HornnOOb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 897 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone. This helps more than you know. I was getting more than a little pissed-off when my intonation went to hell so often with so much water. Good to know I'm not the only one.
Thaks again! _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Severinsen Destino 3*
1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special Cornet
Denis Wick 1C Heavytop
Getzen Flugel 3C |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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I also recommend trying a different valve oil, and putting a little down the leadpipe's a good idea too. Also if you haven't already figured it out blowing hard through the horn rarely helps and often hurts when trying to purge water from the horn. You wind up chasing the water away from the drain. Better to blow gently if at all and to let gravity do the work. I also know guys that routinely remove their slides to dump them more completely. Seems like a lot of work but it works for them.
For the record I use to drain the water from my horn almost constantly to avoid the gurgling. Now that I've been at it for many years I don't feel the need to do it quite so often. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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HornnOOb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 897 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that advice. Yes. Today I had a trumpet lesson and I was getting pissed-off that my intonation was so bad (due to water build-up). My instructor told me the same thing you just told me -- which is not to blow so hard when purging the water. So, I think with all this great advice, I basically have it (getting it) under control. I'm just glad that it's not just something stupid that I was doing.
Happier camper now. _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Severinsen Destino 3*
1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special Cornet
Denis Wick 1C Heavytop
Getzen Flugel 3C |
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jengstrom Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 427 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I've read here on TH and on BrassReview.com that some Kanstul made horns tend to collect water rather than allowing gravity to take it to the spit valves. My own Kanstul 1600 is such a horn. Every so often, I have to rotate the horn backwards a full revolution and watch the water pour out of the bell. Like a damn french horn. If you're willing to put up with that idiosyncrasy, Kanstul makes wonderful horns, and I'd buy another one any day. I've never played a Destino, but I'll bet it's one heck of a horn.
-John |
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HornnOOb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 897 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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jengstrom wrote: | I've read here on TH and on BrassReview.com that some Kanstul made horns tend to collect water rather than allowing gravity to take it to the spit valves. My own Kanstul 1600 is such a horn. Every so often, I have to rotate the horn backwards a full revolution and watch the water pour out of the bell. Like a damn french horn. If you're willing to put up with that idiosyncrasy, Kanstul makes wonderful horns, and I'd buy another one any day. I've never played a Destino, but I'll bet it's one heck of a horn.
-John |
John: Thanks for the Info. on tilting the Kanstuls. Since reading all the advice, I seem to have it under control. My main problem was that I was blowing too hard and the water was being pushed past the release valve(s). Got that sorted out now.
As for the Destino sound, it is truly beautiful! Everything that I could hope for. I let my (pro) trumpet teacher play it today and he really made it sing -- even sizzle a bit.
I'm now getting to the point where I can produce a fairly decent tonality with it. It is true what I have read about the Destino trumpets. They have a nice full rich, lower register sound and then about halfway up through the uppper middle ranges, the damn thing just lights up! It gets very bright and it simply resonates. Frankly, it sounds a lot like some of Doc's tonality. I suppose that makes sense because Doc did design the Destino to meet his personal preferences.
There are 4 or 5 brand new Destino trumperts stilll avaliable at Austin Winds if you're interested. Once they're gone, there will be no more brand new Kanstul / Severinsen Destino trumpets on the planet -- unless soemone stashed a few away somewhere. _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Severinsen Destino 3*
1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special Cornet
Denis Wick 1C Heavytop
Getzen Flugel 3C |
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KanstulBrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 Posts: 714 Location: California
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:20 am Post subject: |
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I've often remarked that Amado water keys should be referred to as "gravity" water keys. Just press the button and let gravity do the work.
Traditional lever-style water keys have nipples where the water collects, so blowing the water out has become a habit for most players. However, blowing will simply push the water past the smaller, low profile hole of the Amado water key.
For those with Amado water keys, it's always a good idea to snake out the horn on occasion to eliminate debris (lint, fungi - we've seen it all) that would block the hole.
We receive few complaints about Amado water keys on our Signature trumpets, and there are many players who prefer them. Personally, I prefer the lever-style water keys.
We would like to leave the community with this reminder: Kanstul horns are built to order, and traditional water keys are available at no extra charge if specified at the time of ordering.
All the best, _________________ Charles G Hargett
Brass Industry Consultant
(Kanstul, Shires, BAC, Benge) |
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mulligan stew Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2003 Posts: 1846
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Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: |
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I have an Austin Winds Stage470LT, made by Kanstul, and it has an interesting feature: traditional lever on the tuning slide, no water key at all on the 3rd valve slide--just a Bach-like dump cap. It's a perfect arrangement--water flows easily out of the tuning slide key, and the 3rd slide rarely collects any. It's the most efficient set-up I've played on. (And it's not just my own chemistry--my previous horn, a late '40s Olds Special, always filled up w/ water and had two lever-style keys. I always thought those sort-of sideways-placed keys were a design flaw. It was impossible to get water out of that horn.) _________________ Scott
My trio:
https://vectortrio.bandcamp.com/ |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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KanstulBrass wrote: | For those with Amado water keys, it's always a good idea to snake out the horn on occasion to eliminate debris (lint, fungi - we've seen it all) that would block the hole.
We receive few complaints about Amado water keys on our Signature trumpets, and there are many players who prefer them. Personally, I prefer the lever-style water keys.
We would like to leave the community with this reminder: Kanstul horns are built to order, and traditional water keys are available at no extra charge if specified at the time of ordering.
All the best, |
I can attest to this. I have never liked (and probably never will like) Amado water keys. So I ordered my Kanstul flugel with the traditional keys. They don't look like an after-thought, or a patched job or anything. AFAICT, the dealer didn't charge any extra for them with this change either, it just meant a slight wait, since it had to be ordered specifically with the change. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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Davidebeck New Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2020 Posts: 5
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Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:13 pm Post subject: Excessive Water in My Horn - Advice Please!! |
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Interesting thread. I purchased a 1980s vintage Getzen 300 in VG condition about 3 months ago and have tried everything to eliminate the almost constant moisture accumulations. I am renewing my playing after many years of absence, so not necessarily a newcomer. I've cleaned it repeatedly and am not in an air conditioned room. However, moisture accumulates on the valves and in various slides as soon as 10 seconds after I begin practicing resulting in many notes being "blocked out" and almost all others muffled by gurgling sounds. Most valve moisture is on the 2nd and 3rd valves but not a lot of it. Watching videos, the amount of moisture from my "spit valves" is minimal compared to others. Any assistance/advice will be helpful but no funny stuff please. |
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mdarnton Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Posts: 122 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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When I started my horn was drowning. That changed very suddenly when I read Clint McLaughlin's no pressure book. I had been tightening my lips and blowing my brains out. When I relaxed my lips, let them go more into the mouthpiece, and stopped trying to blow the notes out the other end the water stopped, instantly |
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