Dealing with purists...

flugle-me-elmo · Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:54 pm Post subject:

Ok, so I'm in my trumpet lessons and my teacher is trying to figure out what I'm talking about when I'm explaining to him what I'm trying to do with my BE embouchure and how it works, and it's not making any sense so I just loan him the book to read through. Well, he gives it back to me the next day and says that basically everything in there is (surprise, surprise) "wrong". Now, I've only been doing B.E. for a few months (and not as efficiently as possible, at that), but I had already been tounging through the teeth for years before that. My teacher is now having me meet with the head of the department to "fix" my articulation issue. My instructor is really a fine player and I respect him a great deal and understand his point of view...but I'm having a hard time here.
One of my biggest problems is that he basically doesn't believe that it works and will sound good in the long run. Now, the CD is a great tool for demonstrating the exercises and playing along, but it really doesn't speak well to show a college instructor what you want to play like (the exercises are not the concerto recordings by Wynton and others that he plays for me). Would any of you guys that are out there really making this work and sound good (especially in classical settings) be willing to post or send me some mp3s or wav files of you playing that I could show him? He doesn't believe that tounging through the lips can possibly be good, especially for multiple tounging anything. I have faith in this system, but my abilities are not good enough to prove to him that it can work...maybe one of you out there can help me (or any out there who may be doubting) hear that trumpet playing with B.E. can be melodic and beautiful, crisp and bold, or everything in between. This would be absolutely wonderful! Thanks to any and all who can help.

Chris

bachstrad · Veteran Member Joined: 08 Mar 2003 Posts: 194

It's been a while since I thumbed through my copy of BE but I think tonguing through the teeth was an excercise for development rather than a primary form of articulation.

Larrios · Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:28 am Post subject:

Hi Chris,

I'm sorry to hear you have to deal with an instructor with a narrow mind. It's good though that you yourself are confident about this method. How well do you get along with your teacher? If he tells you after one day that basically everything in the book is wrong, that means he thinks he has better answers. Couldn't you challenge him by asking if he would try the method for a month himself and see what results it gives him? Perhaps it's a bit naive to think his ego will allow something like this, but as far as I'm concerned it's worth a shot. Clearly he isn't helping you by telling you BE is all wrong. He is sending you to the head of the department to solve your articulation problem? Perhaps you could convince this head that this action proves your teacher's inability to provide you the guidance concerning basic mechanics that you need and that you would expect from someone in his position as a teacher?

As far as the tonguing on lip is concerned, it is indeed a basic skill rather than something you have to apply all the time. Being able to do it is enough. It depends on the musical situation as well as to which articulation is most appropriate. But still, it's not important when performing how you do it. It's important how it sounds. I know that Bert, a professional player and teacher in my country, uses this articulation a lot, if not always. If you would really need that recording to convince your teacher (I doubt that it would though), perhaps he could chip in here? I also know that another classical player and teacher in my country (in fact, both Bert and I took lessons from him!) advocates to tongue on the lip. He has been the solo trumpeter of one of our leading orchestras for years and still plays the first trumpet parts in the "Schönberg Ensemble" today.

I probably can't help you improving your situation, but I do think that you'll learn most things, about the mechanics at least, on your own. Don't give up!

Ko

Larrios · Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:11 am Post subject:

Hi Chris,

I forgot something. There are recordings of a player that I know for sure uses tongue on lips. His name is Eric Vloeimans, another Dutch guy, hehe, and he recorded several international albums which I can highly recommend everyone. A fine example is the album Umai on Challenge Records. The two most recent albums, Hidden History and Boompetit, are also great. (BTW, Eric has Jeff's book!)

You said your teacher is a fine player, but I guess he doesn't play gigs all over the world, right? Eric does, tonguing on his lips.

Another thing. What about those albums he lets you listen to? How does he know for sure that Marsalis doesn't tongue on the lips? Can you hear that? And one last thing for now, I think your teacher should be aware that BE is not just about articulation. What does he say about lip range of motion, for example?

Ko

NetTrumpeterBRA · Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:39 am Post subject:

Chris

Just keep praticing...
In months (maybe in weeks), your playing will prove that BE is right...

Just another question: Do your teacher needs to know that you're using BE ?

Balanced Embouchure is a indirect metohd !

[]'s

NetTrumpeter

mcamilleri · Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:48 am Post subject:

Head-to-head you don't stand a chance with this guy, and the harder you push, the harder he will push back, as he will be on the defensive.

If you can persuade him to try BE for a while (which he seems to have rejected), and see what happens, you might win him over, but basically he has been taught (not experienced) what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' in trumpet playing, and you are down there, hacking away at his roots with a blunt axe. At least he had the courtesy to look through the book before pronouncing his verdict.

I suggest that you use the book on your own, as a self-help method, practicing at home. 20-30 minutes 3-4 times per week is enough to get progess. Stop mentioning BE, and your teacher will probably forget about it also. Eventually, things will come to a head between what he is telling you to do embouchure-wise (if he is actually giving embouchure instruction), and what works best for you. Hopefully by then, the way you are doing things will sound so much better than his way that there will be no argument.

At this stage, you cannot know what embouchure setting BE will lead you into - you might even end up playing with a flat chin, which would probably make your teacher very happy! BE is NOT against flat chin playing, it just says that it does not work for everyone.

Michael
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:49 am Post subject:

Chris,

Some lessons in life are harder to learn than others. What you need to understand is, the BE book will not likely be welcomed into a typical college trumpet studio. BE goes against the grain of conventional wisdom. If you believe that a recording of someone with BE training, who plays wonderfully, will help persuade the typical college professor that BE is a worthwhile approach, then you are naive at best.

Bias in the educational world runs deep in favor of another approach (let's call it "approach Z"). I have found that approach Z has serious flaws. There is a natural clash here between methods, as many players have based their careers on perpetuating and teaching approach Z. In a sense, their lives are based on approach Z. Asking them to accept a different approach (quite different!) is like telling them their life has been a lie.

Not everybody who teaches approach Z is this closely identified with it, but the majority are, which means that you run a risk of being strongly shot down when you expose yourself to them. So the real question is, how strong is your will? Can you continue doing BE without the approval of your music department?

In my opinion, it is better to not say anything and just do the exercises. To others, this is a cop-out, as they would rather confront or enlist the teacher in their trumpet quest.

The bottom line is, you have to figure out what to do for yourself, according to your personality and the situation. BE is still very young, and largely unknown. My guess is that less than 1% of all trumpet players have even heard of it. Maybe in 10 years or so, that figure will change.

Ahh, the joys of being cutting-edge!

Jeff

LFRoberts5 · Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:20 pm Post subject:

Drop your teacher!
_________________
Student of the Trumpet!
It's not about us....It's about God!

trumpetjunkie · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2003 Posts: 622

Having dealt with this issue myself, I've had to just drop the whole subject of BE, not mentioning it to her, (the teacher) just taking the good and leaving the bad. The results from BE should be able to prove themselves eventually. I don't do any roll in exercises or even play high when I'm in a lesson... she doesn't know I can play past an a above the staff, and I don't want her to know until I am able to play up there musically, then when I do show her, and it is musical, I doubt she will be so skeptacle. Learn everything you can from your teacher, (cause everyone has something to offer) and just forget about the rest. And keep pluggin with the BE... cause it works.