View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Secco Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 105 Location: Santa Barbara
|
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:32 pm Post subject: Smaller- vs larger-bore Flugel |
|
|
I've had the same Courtois flugelhorn for nearly 30 years, but I've never looked at, or even thought about horn specs very much. Recently I became aware that the Courtois, and some other French-made flugs have a bore smaller than most trumpets. My Courtois is apparently .415. I've always loved the sound I get from this horn in the mid and low registers, but I've always noticed that anything much above an E on top of the staff starts to feel stuffy, and starts to sound thin and flat in intonation (I think of this as the "Chuck Mangione Syndrome"). Is this likely to be a consequence of the small bore, or is it a Courtois thing, and would a larger-bore flugelhorn be more noticeably free-blowing with bigger sound in the upper range? I don't think it's me, because this doesn't happen with my trumpet playing. My mpc is a Reeves 42F. Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. _________________ Kanstul 1600/Curry 3BC. and 3TF, Stomvi Flex
Kanstul Pocket
WT Flugel, Copper / FO#3 std |
|
Back to top |
|
|
delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
The .415 bore is very OK for flugels, it's the classic bore of the Cuesnon Monopole.
The problems in the high register is a typical Courtois thing. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
connicalman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 1668 Location: West Medford, MA
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So much of the blow depends on the mouthpiece and lead tube. IMO the top-staff notes sound more steady on the small-bore models when using a deep large-bore mouthpiece. Could be me. Seems the same right up to top-line G, then there's a serious wall, out of all proportion with trumpet or cornet demands, one that requires strong corners and a relaxed kisser. _________________ kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ChopsGone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1793
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
delano wrote: | ...
The problems in the high register is a typical Courtois thing. |
Yeah, those Courtois horns are real junk. That's why Nakariakov sounds so bad on them.
Maybe it would be safer to say that the high register "problems" are just characteristic of a lot of flugelhorns. Who cares? They sound so much better in or below the staff anyway. _________________ Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls.... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Next time you are in SoCal, take it to Flip Oakes for a valve alignment. Then pick out one of his Flugel mouthpieces. Nobody makes anything like his Extreme Flugel mpc. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
maynard-46 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2002 Posts: 1845 Location: GEORGIA
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject: Smaller- vs larger-bore Flugel |
|
|
Quote: | (I think of this as the "Chuck Mangione Syndrome"). |
I'll bite...what does this mean???
Butch |
|
Back to top |
|
|
royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have three small bore flugels and don't find that any of them are stuffy in the upper register after they are set up right, but I don't know about Courtois. It's a little smaller sound than something like a Getzen four valve, but I wouldn't call it stuffy.
Before I would pin this on the maker, there are several things I would check . . .cleaning, of course . . . then valve alignment, mouthpiece [taper] fit and choice. If none of that helps, I would try an aftermarket leadpipe, such as a Pilczuk. With a little inspection, and possibly $120 for a new pipe, you might find that you had a very good playing horn. The custom leadpipe makers will let you try out pipes and return them if they don't work, so why not try it, if needed? _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
|
Back to top |
|
|
maynard-46 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2002 Posts: 1845 Location: GEORGIA
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:26 pm Post subject: Smaller- vs larger-bore Flugel |
|
|
Quote: | I have three small bore flugels |
I believe that your Getzen is a .460 bore which is not a small bore flugel by any stretch! In fact I think that's the largest bore flugel made!
Butch |
|
Back to top |
|
|
royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
|
Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Butch,
Not all my horns are listed in my signature. Sorry for any confusion. I measure all my horns with calipers, so I know the Getzen is about the largest bore flugel. I would think that the context of my post would indicate that, but maybe not to you.
The Olds in my sig is about 0.430" if I remember right. The small bore horns are about 0.410" to 0.415" . . . they are two French, Belgian or Dutch horns that are similar to the Couesnon in design and an Elkhardt, which is a Couesnon stencil.
Hope that clears it up. The Elkhardt plays fine and the other two play fine since their valves have been lined up. I don't fine 'em stuffy. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
|
Back to top |
|
|
delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
|
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
ChopsGone wrote: | delano wrote: | ...
The problems in the high register is a typical Courtois thing. |
Yeah, those Courtois horns are real junk. That's why Nakariakov sounds so bad on them.
Maybe it would be safer to say that the high register "problems" are just characteristic of a lot of flugelhorns. Who cares? They sound so much better in or below the staff anyway. |
There are a lot of threads in fora in the US, Germany, France, GB and Holland about slottingproblems of the Courtois flugels above G above the staff.
Most of them on TH. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
maynard-46 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2002 Posts: 1845 Location: GEORGIA
|
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:44 am Post subject: Smaller- vs larger-bore Flugel |
|
|
Gotcha! MY bad!
Butch |
|
Back to top |
|
|
laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
|
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just a precision: when comparing the bore sizes between a trumpet and a flugel, don't forget that the measurement is taken at the second valve slide in both cases, which means at the half of the horn (about 60-70cms from the entry of the leadpipe) in the case of the trumpet, but at only 15 or 20cms approx. of the entry of the leadpipe in the case of the flugel.
I think that it would be much more significative to know the bore size of a flugel at the half of the horn as well, but it's probably impossible! _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois volution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagu (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert Rowe Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Posts: 5364 Location: Chincoteague, Virginia
|
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Smaller- vs larger-bore Flugel |
|
|
maynard-46 wrote: | Quote: | I have three small bore flugels |
I believe that your Getzen is a .460 bore which is not a small bore flugel by any stretch! In fact I think that's the largest bore flugel made!
Butch |
Not so.
I have several Martin Fluegelhorns. Five of them are the Martin "X-Large", .468" bore ... and, the other Martin ( which looks like a "regular" Fleugel, with a Euro-style tuning-bit mouthpipe, and may be the only one in existence) measures at .460" with my super-accurate Mitutoyo calipers.
Re: the post topic
The mouthpipe and the mouthpiece are extremely important, no matter what brand or what bore-size Fleugelhorn. EXTREMELY important!.
Most Fluegels excel in the middle and lower registers. Why not try to stay / play there, with only (perhaps?) occasional forays into the upper-register?
~ r2 ~ _________________ ~ Love animals ... don't eat them. ~
I miss Genghis Khan .... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
James B. Quick Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2003 Posts: 2067 Location: La Crosse, WI
|
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I love my Mario Corso Flugelhorn, It's bore is .475....
jbq |
|
Back to top |
|
|
qcm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Massachusetts
|
Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I personally don't like to play a flugel above a Bb above the staff. I don't know how to describe it, but it just seems unnatural, to me at least, to play anything above that.
I play on a large bore, .460 bore, LA Benge 3FL flugel.
-Dave _________________ Dave Edwards
Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
irith Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2008 Posts: 879
|
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
I haven't spent tons of time on the flugel but I have always preferred the smaller bores when playing it. I think it helps get the right sound and approach when you can back off a bit. The larger bores, to me, encourage more of a trumpet-y sound and approach. Might just be mental but that's what I've experienced. _________________ Bach, Schilke, Pickett mostly |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Flugelnut Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2004 Posts: 478 Location: The Netherlands
|
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
As far as easy high-register playing is concerned I don't feel much difference between my 1982 Benge 5FL (large bore, very wide bell throat) and my (probably 1960's) French Besson.
Like Dave I don't like playing much over the staff on flugel anyway, IMO almost all of the characteristic sound is lost there.
At the high C level I find it hard to distinguish flugel from cornet from trumpet.
I wouldn't blame the horn, and I'm not a Courtois fan by any means. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1965
|
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:48 am Post subject: Flugel bores |
|
|
A free blowing flugel in the high register? Looking at two really great players who did indeed play in the upper register on their flugels [Freddie Hubbard and Chuck Mangione], their choice of equipment might be a clue. Freddie played a .460 Getzen and could make you weep with his delicate low register playing as well as excite the hell out of you upstairs. His mouthpiece choice I don't know, but from the lower register playing he did so well I would guess it wasn't too small. Chuck Mangione loved playing above the staff with the music he wrote and I believe he favored a shallow mouthpiece. Both guys did quite well, and to generalize about various horns and upper registers getting stuffy in the upper register seems to be a bit misleading. As always, balance is the key with both trumpet and flugelhorns and mouthpiece/horn combinations should be determined by each player, perhaps with another set of ears helping out. The flugelhorn players I have admired through the years have been mostly playing the smaller bore french style horns such as Bessons and Courtois. Art Farmer to me epitomized how a flugel should be approached, and Clark Terry made the instrument an extension of his own voice. Playing the flugel is quite different from the trumpet and it's my belief that it should be approached with that in mind.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or now in Europe at Musik-Bertram, Freiburg, Germany. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
|
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Flugel bores |
|
|
Tony Scodwell wrote: | ...Art Farmer to me epitomized how a flugel should be approached, and Clark Terry made the instrument an extension of his own voice. Playing the flugel is quite different from the trumpet and it's my belief that it should be approached with that in mind.
|
Absolutely on all counts!
Two of my flugel idols and models/goals.
Horn wise: I play a Kanstul 1525 with a really huge mouthpiece. I don't know the bore of the horn or even if it is considered large or small. I rarely play it very much over the staff and seldom play other than softly. I like to think of the sound as a difuse cloud gently filling the room.
I love it. I love it because on it I found my voice.
Tommy T.
(I wish that I played as well as that seems to imply.) _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
qcm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Massachusetts
|
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Flugel bores |
|
|
Tony Scodwell wrote: | Playing the flugel is quite different from the trumpet and it's my belief that it should be approached with that in mind.
Tony Scodwell |
Excellent point Tony, I completely agree.
Flugelhorn, to me, is a much more subtle and nuanced instrument. I think a lot of guys who double, play it too aggressively, like it's a trumpet. But it's not. I particularly try and use softer tonguing on the articulations.
It's my favorite instrument to play.
-Dave _________________ Dave Edwards
Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|