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Type3B Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2016 Posts: 108 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:29 am Post subject: Left-hand grip |
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Hi All -- Rich recently reminded us of how Doc emphasized the importance of a firm left-hand grip. Also important, I think, is what type of grip. I recently have been experimenting with the "pistol" grip, and find that it raises my horn angle slightly, which transfers some weight to the bottom lip, thus taking some weight off the top lip. Any thoughts on grip type? |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:53 am Post subject: |
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Pistol grip ? Does that mean your forefinger is in the ring ? Interesting but it wouldn't work for me. I have always used middle finger in ring with two up and two down. But, whatever works I guess. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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Type3B Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2016 Posts: 108 Location: New Hampshire
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furcifer Veteran Member
Joined: 24 May 2014 Posts: 155 Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Pistol grip can also be modified to put the middle finger in the ring if you need it. I probably play that way more often than the Maynard pistol grip in the pic - but it depends on the chart, right? Today I got to blow lead again on "The Jazz Police" - Gordon Goodwin, so, guess what?
Then again, Wayne Bergeron hooks his little finger under the 3rd slide all the time, so what do I know? Think it would help me get that Double B? LOL _________________ Stomvi S3 Big Bell -2018
Bach 180ST37 -'80
Benge CG -'78
Buescher LP 9 -1926
Getzen 896S-4 flugel -'86
Conn 18H bone -'64
Getzen M2003E Bb/G bugle
Getzen Titleist 2v soprano G -'79
King K-50 G mellophone
Henri Gautier Cornet C/Bb/A -1919 |
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furcifer Veteran Member
Joined: 24 May 2014 Posts: 155 Location: Texas
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:51 am Post subject: |
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...and then there's this:
https://youtu.be/v42j7xwOaIw
Actually I see Lynn playing with the middle finger in the ring now most of the time. _________________ Stomvi S3 Big Bell -2018
Bach 180ST37 -'80
Benge CG -'78
Buescher LP 9 -1926
Getzen 896S-4 flugel -'86
Conn 18H bone -'64
Getzen M2003E Bb/G bugle
Getzen Titleist 2v soprano G -'79
King K-50 G mellophone
Henri Gautier Cornet C/Bb/A -1919 |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:00 am Post subject: |
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I would agree 100% that this picture shows what Doc called the "pistol grip." It looks pretty firm, too.
The main thing Doc harped on about the firm left-hand grip is to always use the same grip every single time you pick up your horn. That sustains our contact with the four legs of the inner embouchure and allows consistent performance. If you use a different grip throughout your playing (some guys use two or three per tune) and have endurance problems, those difficulties could be alleviated by adopting one grip and using that from this point forward.
The "firm" part of the left hand grip keeps popping up for me as one of the most important things I can do to prevent fatigue and bad habits from creeping in. That one simple thing goes a long way toward permitting my chops to improve and flourish. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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JoshMizruchi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 605 Location: Newark, NJ
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Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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I think the grip thing is very individual. I could never really play with the pistol grip when I tried it. I'd play with too little pressure and the mouthpiece would bounce around everywhere.
The main thing is that the grip should be solid and comfortable. I saw Lynn Nicholson hold the bottom of the valve casing like he does here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v42j7xwOaIw . Probably wouldn't work for me but obviously works for him there.
But, for myself? I like to just hold it the standard way (at this moment in time, at least).
By the way, that's one of the best pictures of Maynard's chops I've ever seen. _________________ Josh Mizruchi
http://www.joshmizruchi.com |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Resurrecting this....
Recently discovered that the grip I'd been using may well not be the best for me.
I'd been playing with one finger below the third slide and the rest above - this encouraged a higher horn angle than was necessarily ideal for me, and encouraging more pressure on the top lip in the process. I *think* the split grip I was using was encouraging the wrist to stay straight (otherwise it'd tense).
I wonder if there's any correlation between likely (no hard rules I'm certain) ideal hand grips and embouchure types (or at very least, jaw alignments?) or whether this is 100% personal?
For example, might a IV be more likely to thrive with my previous grip than a IIIB?
Are there any tests that help suggest whether a given grip is ideal for a given player?
For example, would we be looking for our left-hand grip to take all of the weight and produce a fairly light right-hand grip, or would that be a sign of another sub-optimal grip? |
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JoshMizruchi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 605 Location: Newark, NJ
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Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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TKSop wrote: | Resurrecting this....
Recently discovered that the grip I'd been using may well not be the best for me.
I'd been playing with one finger below the third slide and the rest above - this encouraged a higher horn angle than was necessarily ideal for me, and encouraging more pressure on the top lip in the process. I *think* the split grip I was using was encouraging the wrist to stay straight (otherwise it'd tense).
I wonder if there's any correlation between likely (no hard rules I'm certain) ideal hand grips and embouchure types (or at very least, jaw alignments?) or whether this is 100% personal?
For example, might a IV be more likely to thrive with my previous grip than a IIIB?
Are there any tests that help suggest whether a given grip is ideal for a given player?
For example, would we be looking for our left-hand grip to take all of the weight and produce a fairly light right-hand grip, or would that be a sign of another sub-optimal grip? |
So you were putting your pinky below the 3rd valve slide?
Excellent question about the grip style and type correlation. I honestly don't know, but I can say as a IV, I prefer to play with all fingers on my left hand atop the third valve slide and the ring finger in the hook. I can also play with the pistol grip with slight comfort, but it's not my first choice.
I think there are other factors that determine grip besides embouchure type too, like hand structure and all kinds of other physical factors as well. _________________ Josh Mizruchi
http://www.joshmizruchi.com |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1892
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I find it impossible to get a firm left hand grip when I need to operate both first and third valve slides while playing. Any ideas? |
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amuk Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 148
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it is possible. Triggers might be a help but---- |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5705 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: |
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A long time ago I moved to a split grip - two fingers below the 3rd valve slide, two fingers above with my middle finger in the ring. Sometimes when I'm doing a brass quintet thing I might opt for the traditional grip, but I mostly use that split grip these days, and I don't have any issues operating either the 1st or 3rd valve slides. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | I find it impossible to get a firm left hand grip when I need to operate both first and third valve slides while playing. Any ideas? |
I think it has to do with hand size. I guaranty, there's no problem there. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1892
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I need to operate the 1st and 3rd slides at the same time, and I find it impossible to keed my left palm touching the valve casing. I need to hold the instrument with the ends of my fingers in order to be able to work the slides. A firm grip when I am at work is ilusive. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | I need to operate the 1st and 3rd slides at the same time, and I find it impossible to keed my left palm touching the valve casing. I need to hold the instrument with the ends of my fingers in order to be able to work the slides. A firm grip when I am at work is ilusive. |
What situation could there possibly be where both need to be extended at the same time? I've never found a note that required more than one or the other. A little reminder that trumpets didn't used to have movable slides. And then when they did, the third one was enough. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1892
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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I play 2nd trumpet in a pro orchestra. Intonation is not easy and I need to use both slides, not usually together, but alternating between the two. If Im just practicing i ignore the 1st valve slide, but at work I can' t do that. In order to have my hand ready to operate either slide, a firm grip without ha ving to change my hand position for me is impossible. I'm not looking for condescending remarks. I believe that the only way to keep a firm grip would be to ha ve pitch finder with a trigger mechanism, which would probably degrade the horns playing characteristics. |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 737 Location: SE US
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Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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On Trumpet, Bb and C, I use a split Left Hand grip, 2 up, 2 down and middle finger for 3rd slide, but on my Flugel, that doesn't work as well. The natural grip ends up being more of a modified "Pistol Grip", index above 3rd pipe, and 3 below gripping 3rd valve slide. I recently had a 3rd valve trigger added to my old Getzen Flugelhorn and this grip doesn't work as well as it used to. I am forcing myself to use a 2 up, 2 down grip in order to use my ring finger to press the trigger, which seems easier with the position of trigger. This is somewhat more comfortable and a little more firm, but different. Gonna take some getting used to! _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1811 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | I play 2nd trumpet in a pro orchestra. Intonation is not easy and I need to use both slides, not usually together, but alternating between the two. If Im just practicing i ignore the 1st valve slide, but at work I can' t do that. In order to have my hand ready to operate either slide, a firm grip without ha ving to change my hand position for me is impossible. I'm not looking for condescending remarks. I believe that the only way to keep a firm grip would be to ha ve pitch finder with a trigger mechanism, which would probably degrade the horns playing characteristics. |
This firm grip idea is new to me - I just happened on this thread, and have been experimenting with it. (And am surprised at how much difference it makes!) I also use my slides a lot, and find this challenging. But, what grip do you use for your left hand? With the "split grip" (two fingers below the third slide, middle finger in the ring, index finger on the valve casing), I can keep my lowest two fingers firm without interfering with the slides. (It feels unfamiliar, but overcomeable, I think.)
Edit to say: Also, I suspect I can get around the issue by using my first slide more and third less - just using the first slide for Ds and C#s. I have an easier time keeping my fingers firm and thumb movable than only certain fingers firm. |
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