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jicetp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 990
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Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:28 am Post subject: Tip ? is it working ? |
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Hi there !
I am interested in the Callet.TCE approach, even though I dont label what I (try and) do.
The mysterious tongue position has been quite diffcult to grasp, but lately, I have tried this methodology :
- I stick my tongue far out of my mouth.
- I make a ' spit buzz ' sound
- close the lips while trying to let 'as much tongue as possible in front of the mouth '
- I place the mouthpiece
- I blow
Feeling's a bit ' weird ' with som much stuff in front of the mouth
But if I try to not overblow, I get some great sounding pitches from low C to sometimes High G (even higher squeaks ) with no pressure !
What is annoying me is that I have to have this setting routine which cant be applied in a real performance !!
Does anybody tried it that way ? Like it ? Or not ?
Will it become second nature in 10 000 hours.....?
Thanks
JiCe |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Hi JiCe,
Don't try and over-do the tongue. Your sentence "Let as much tongue as possible in front of the mouth" is not how I would describe the correct forward, bevelled, but relaxed tongue position that we're going after.
If you can play all of the exercises in my Seven bugles book, which I believe you own (at least, you do according to my database ), then you already have the answer to your question above. If you cannot then you know what work needs to be done.
Work through the exercises and you will strengthen the tongue and become familiar with the correct movements. The forward position will be less difficult to maintain and you won't need to perform such an extreme set up each time you play.
Oh, and don't blow - spit! _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9151 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Have you read the section in Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure (BE) book, on tonguing through the lips exercises and directions? If I'm not mistaking, he got the idea from Jerome Callet. It's pretty clear in BE. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Selmer K-Modified Light Trumpet (for sale)
Benge 3X Cornet |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:43 am Post subject: |
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It is worth taking a look at and I have suggested the "Tongue On Lips" to people as a stepping stone in the past, but be aware that it is not TCE because neither is the tongue "anchored" or "bevelled". _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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deleted_user_02066fd New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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trumpetplanet wrote: | It is worth taking a look at and I have suggested the "Tongue On Lips" to people as a stepping stone in the past, but be aware that it is not TCE because neither is the tongue "anchored" or "bevelled". |
My recollection in Jeff's book is that he didn't say to anchor or not anchor the tongue. I thought he said something like the tongue will find it's own spot after articulating.
I could be wrong. If Jeff is reading any of this maybe he could chime in. |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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peanuts56 wrote: |
My recollection in Jeff's book is that he didn't say to anchor or not anchor the tongue. I thought he said something like the tongue will find it's own spot after articulating.
I could be wrong. If Jeff is reading any of this maybe he could chime in. |
You're right - there is no direct instruction as to what you should consciously do with the tongue after the attack when performing TOL exercises in BE. That supports what I'm saying - that they are different and one is not a means for learning the other. _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9151 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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The OP said, "I stick my tongue far out of my mouth. " My suggestion has to do with that. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Selmer K-Modified Light Trumpet (for sale)
Benge 3X Cornet |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | The OP said, "I stick my tongue far out of my mouth. " My suggestion has to do with that. |
Yes, I can see you're trying to help.
During the era of Jerome's teaching that inspired some ideas in the BE method he taught that you should use the tongue through the teeth.
Jeff's book calls it tongue on lips.
Notice that neither of these are "tongue through the lips".
Just trying to avoid confusion. I know that I'm a pedant. _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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jicetp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 990
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all your remarks.
I'll try and be not so rude and stick my tongue that much |
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jicetp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 990
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Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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After re-reading the comments , I should point some things out :
- my trying to get the tongue 'as forward ' as possible is my take on ' let the tongue in contact with the lips ' which I find quite difficult to do . After years of back of the tongue arching and articulating at the top of the teeth, I have to educate my tongue to stay forward.
I should have written : this stick-out tongue is to remind me to have the tongue forward , because I dont do it naturally (yet).
I suck at going from the pedals to high notes, but its easier to ' set ' for a high tone and get down.
I guess I have to find my way.
Typical morning session is :
get the double pedals going with the ' right ' tongue position.
some chromatics from double pedal C to F# ( slurred, rongues, G tongued, double tongues, triple tongued )
then I try and play every open harmonics ( C G middle C middle E and so on ) with the tongue position
and afterwards, I try and connect the two like :
play low C down to pedal C
then pedal C to low C
G down to pedal C
pedal C to G
and so on until I feel some tension creeping in (usually high E/F# or G depending on the day )
This way I feel I have :
warmed-up
played all ( not all only open notes ) my range , from any place on the trumpet up and down
this takes around 10minutes , depending on the wife/kids/TV program if I get distracted
some fingers work is to be done and I am good to go ! |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3367 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:35 am Post subject: |
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jicetp wrote: | ... and articulating at the top of the teeth ... |
-------------------------------------------------
My feeling is the tip of my tongue articulates at the bottom of my upper front teeth.
I don't understand how you would articulate 'at the top of the teeth' - near the gum line?
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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jicetp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 990
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Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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I meant I used to ( and still do ) have the tip of my tongue striking the upper part of the teeth for articulation |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:31 am Post subject: |
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jicetp wrote: | I meant I used to ( and still do ) have the tip of my tongue striking the upper part of the teeth for articulation |
If you're interested in the teaching of Jerome Callet then why is this the case? _________________ UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.
https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/ |
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jicetp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 990
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Bacause bad habits are hard to remove |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2175 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:04 am Post subject: |
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jicetp wrote: | get the double pedals going with the ' right ' tongue position. |
Where is your tongue when playing double pedals?
When I took a few lessons in his basement studio on Staten Island, Jerome demonstrated playing double pedals, but he did not have me play any double pedals.
When I play double pedals now, my tongue is not in the picture at all. When I tried placing my tongue the way I play normal register (tip of tongue on bottom lip and front-middle of tongue striking against top lip), the sound goes away.
Thanks in advance.
Jerry |
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trumpetplanet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Posts: 543 Location: Bristol, UK
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