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beetleklee New Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2023 Posts: 5 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 3:25 pm Post subject: Valves slow on upstroke |
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I'm a comeback player who has been at it again for about 6 months now. I have a 1970 King Silver Flair which I love how it sounds and plays, but the valves sometimes are slow on the upstroke, especially the third one, followed by the first. The second valve behaves the best, but it too sometimes gets sticky. But it works 99% of the time.
Here is what I have tried:
-New springs, specifically for this model of trumpet.
-New springs, random Amazon ones. They do improve the stickiness, but I hate the way they feel. They're stiff and hard to keep down.
-New felts for the valves.
-A number of oils. Yamaha regular, Blue Juice, Hetman Light, Hetman Classic, Music Nomad.
-I always wash out the valve casings and the valves when switching oils. I recently gave my horn a bath, and it didn't fix anything. I use a valve brush and casing brush, so I'm not just letting it sit in soapy water to clean. Horn was professionally cleaned before my purchase, too.
-Light oil seems to be the worst, Regular next worst, Hetman Classic seems to be the best but best still isn't great....first and third valve are still slow on the upstroke, just less sticky than using light oil.
-Valve Wash detergent makes them work the best, but it is not oil. The third valve still sometimes hangs up with this, though. But it is very close to working perfect after I wipe the oil and apply this.
-I don't see any dents on valves or casings.
-I had a tech take a 10-15 minute look at it when I went to go buy oil, and he was very confused as he didn't see anything wrong. Valves for the most part look fine, the third does have some brown wear at the bottom which may be contributing to the problem.
Is there anything else I can try before I take it to get a more in depth diagnostic? I'm kind of living paycheck to paycheck right now, and fear a valve replating. I don't want to try any sort of thing I have no idea about (ie lapping) but wondering if there are other oils that may work better.
I'm also in Canada so some things may not be available to me. _________________ 1970s King Silver Flair 1055T
1970s Holton T602
1950s Getzen Super Deluxe Cornet
1915 Conn 80A Cornet |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Horn was professionally cleaned before my purchase, too. |
What did that entail?
Of course that really doesn't matter. Take it somewhere that you trust to do a good job. But then my experience, when I had the same thing, was to take it to a second place. They showed my how bad a cleaning job the first place had done and then did it right. Proglem solved.
Both places had done stuff for me with no problem before. Just not this one time. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2360 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Just from your description I'm leaning toward thinking that the valves are naturally worn - a little on the loose side, and your hand position/technique is such that when the valve is down you're putting pressure in a sideways direction (slightly), as you raise your finger the valve drags as it has a bit of wobble.
Do they hang up when you work then individually, or just when you're playing? This would be a major hint that it's a hand mechanics issue.
Older horns often work better with a little heavier oil.. I've even used "Yamaha Trombone Lubricant" - very slick with a little body.
Have you checked the valve guides? They can also be a reason the valves hang up - a little burr in the track or if they're very worn/loose.
If it was "professionally" cleaned, I wouldn't think that it's not a cleaning issue. And a dent or burr in the casing or on the valve would act up all the time, not intermittently. (If there were an issue like this and you could see it - the valve wouldn't likely move at all-very close tolerance) _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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jeirvine Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2022 Posts: 358 Location: Baltimore, MD USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Check the stems aren't bent and rubbing against the hole in the top valve cap. Take off the buttons and it will be an easy check.
And since the 2nd works ok, you can also swap stuff between valves: stems, springs, guides - and see if the problem follows the part.
A diy compression test is another easy thing to do: https://youtu.be/gjFUhOKCrAk?si=gkUmIieGjFJZfdj2&t=183 _________________ 1932 King Silvertone Artist Bore
1945 Buescher 400
1946 Olds Super
1947 Olds Super Cornet
1948 Couesnon flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special
1956 Martin Committee
1964 Olds Recording
1968 Bach 329 C
1996 Bach 37 |
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beetleklee New Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2023 Posts: 5 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | Quote: | Horn was professionally cleaned before my purchase, too. |
What did that entail?
Of course that really doesn't matter. Take it somewhere that you trust to do a good job. But then my experience, when I had the same thing, was to take it to a second place. They showed my how bad a cleaning job the first place had done and then did it right. Proglem solved.
Both places had done stuff for me with no problem before. Just not this one time. |
Acid bath, polishing. One of the most reputable places in the city, but getting a second opinion is on my "to-do" list anyways. It's more of a drive out but the second place I'd be looking at is supposed to be the best though, and owned by a trumpeter, so going to give them a try. _________________ 1970s King Silver Flair 1055T
1970s Holton T602
1950s Getzen Super Deluxe Cornet
1915 Conn 80A Cornet |
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beetleklee New Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2023 Posts: 5 Location: British Columbia
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | Just from your description I'm leaning toward thinking that the valves are naturally worn - a little on the loose side, and your hand position/technique is such that when the valve is down you're putting pressure in a sideways direction (slightly), as you raise your finger the valve drags as it has a bit of wobble.
Do they hang up when you work then individually, or just when you're playing? This would be a major hint that it's a hand mechanics issue.
Older horns often work better with a little heavier oil.. I've even used "Yamaha Trombone Lubricant" - very slick with a little body.
Have you checked the valve guides? They can also be a reason the valves hang up - a little burr in the track or if they're very worn/loose.
If it was "professionally" cleaned, I wouldn't think that it's not a cleaning issue. And a dent or burr in the casing or on the valve would act up all the time, not intermittently. (If there were an issue like this and you could see it - the valve wouldn't likely move at all-very close tolerance) |
They hang up more on longer notes, it could be a pressure issue but I arch my fingers and try to push straight down. I'm guessing the former owner played it in such a way that the valves wore down a certain way.
I do have trombone lube so I'll try that too.
I tried replacement plastic valve guides and it didn't work, but I'll give it another try. _________________ 1970s King Silver Flair 1055T
1970s Holton T602
1950s Getzen Super Deluxe Cornet
1915 Conn 80A Cornet |
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ConnArtist Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2008 Posts: 2833 Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | Just from your description I'm leaning toward thinking that the valves are naturally worn - a little on the loose side, and your hand position/technique is such that when the valve is down you're putting pressure in a sideways direction (slightly), as you raise your finger the valve drags as it has a bit of wobble.
Do they hang up when you work then individually, or just when you're playing? This would be a major hint that it's a hand mechanics issue.
Have you checked the valve guides? They can also be a reason the valves hang up - a little burr in the track or if they're very worn/loose. |
I’m putting my money on one of these. I had a Bach that seemed to have a lousy 3rd cause from day one. Turns out it was lousy technique and angular pressure, especially on third valve. Eventually that valve was more worn on on side at the bottom of the piston. OP described some wear that did kind of like this.
If you think about it, the down stroke you get to use your hand strength. In the return stroke, if your finger is putting more than zero percent its weight, and at a wonky angle, the spring has to overcome the weight of the piston, you partial finger weight, AND the friction of the piston against casting where you have slight angular pressure. That stronger springs overcome this is further evidence either your pressure is at an angle, or prior user did this enough to deform the piston, casing, or shaft _________________ "Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
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ConnArtist Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2008 Posts: 2833 Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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jeirvine wrote: | Check the stems aren't bent and rubbing against the hole in the top valve cap. Take off the buttons and it will be an easy check.
And since the 2nd works ok, you can also swap stuff between valves: stems, springs, guides - and see if the problem follows the part.
A diy compression test is another easy thing to do: https://youtu.be/gjFUhOKCrAk?si=gkUmIieGjFJZfdj2&t=183 |
This is a good, quick, easy diagnostic that helped me figure out a Martin IHC that I bought with one slow valve was, in fact, the piston. Turned out they had been replated, and that one was just too tight and needed to be lapped in further. Given the wear pattern described by OP, I suspect this (needing to be lapped) is NOT problem with the horn in question _________________ "Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1991 Location: WI
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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I had a similar problem with my early 50's Martin Committee. Charlie Melk restored it for me. The valves had no perceptible side-to-side play, and when Charlie tested them they all had very good compression, so aside from cleaning we left them alone (no rebuild).
When I played the horn, the valves would periodically drag and act sluggish (especially the second valve); it happened frequently enough to be an annoyance.
I tried cleaning the pistons and cylinders with a grease-cutting dishwashing liquid a couple of times, and also experimented with different weight oils, all without success.
What finally fixed the problem was soaking the pistons in alcohol for a few hours, cleaning them and the cylinder walls with de-greasing dishwashing liquid (again), and then oiling and reinserting the pistons. (I had tried the same steps previously with vinegar instead of alcohol at the suggestion of a knowledgeable party). After that, I couldn't make the valves stick no matter how hard I tried.
I am guessing that there was some kind of very stubborn, very thin build-up on those decades-old pistons that promoted draggy, sluggish valve action and would only respond to the right kind of solvent. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1871 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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King made world class valves. One thing they did was put a matte finish on the pistons to better hold the oil.
Do you have shiny spots on the valves? If you do that might indicate the location of small dents in the valve casing.
Get rid of the brown on the 3rd valve. Clean off the oil with detergent, then wrap that portion of the piston with paper towel that is soaked with vinegar. Don't soak the piston in vinegar.
If you have shiny spots on the piston, consider a light lapping with toothpaste. This is a pain since you will have to wash the trumpet again and brush out all of the slides and connecting tubes, then clean the valves repeatedly. I'm assuming you still have good valve compression.
Get some Simple Green to clean your casings with using a cleaning rod and cheese cloth or old t-shirt material. Clean until there is no discoloration on the cloth. A casing brush is not good enough. Clean the valves too.
Try Denis Wick oil with Teflon. It sometimes takes several applications. |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1991 Location: WI
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | . . . then wrap that portion of the piston with paper towel that is soaked with vinegar. Don't soak the piston in vinegar. |
Why do you recommend against soaking? Are you concerned that the vinegar would have a deleterious effect on the metal in the air passages? (I'm not asking in an argumentative frame of mind, just genuinely curious and interested in seeing if there's something more for me to learn.)
Andy Cooper wrote: | If you have shiny spots on the piston, consider a light lapping with toothpaste. |
I wouldn't personally try to do anything abrasive to a valve; I'd leave that to an experienced tech. There is a German term "verschlimmbesserung" which means "an action that is supposed to improve something, but ends up making it worse." That precisely describes what I would do if I tried to abrade a valve surface. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:14 am; edited 2 times in total |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Bájoc Music Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2023 Posts: 49 Location: Portland, MI
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:12 am Post subject: |
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beetleklee wrote: | I have a 1970 King Silver Flair which I love how it sounds and plays, but the valves sometimes are slow on the upstroke, especially the third one, followed by the first. The second valve behaves the best, but it too sometimes gets sticky. But it works 99% of the time. |
zaferis wrote: | Have you checked the valve guides? They can also be a reason the valves hang up ... |
Usually, the reason why some valve issues are never 100% resolved (either with valve jobs, applying thicker oil, etc.) is because there is still a mechanical malfunction within the valve guide assembly.
The circular base on the valve guide that holds the valve spring can rub against the inner walls of the spring barrel, causing these valve catches or "hiccups" on the upstroke. As the piston naturally wears down, The valve guide can shift around on the inside of the spring barrel and rub up against the spring barrel. If you look down your pistons' spring barrels, sometimes you can see shiny vertical lines of a brass valve guide rubbing up against the spring barrel. That is no good if that is the case...
My patented Bájoc Ergonomic Valve Guides are designed to eliminate these valve-catching issues and allow for smooth and consistent valve action. They are available for this list of valves/brands:
B&S — All Challenger I/II and X-Line Series Trumpets, Cornets, and Flügelhorns (only Model 3145)
Bach — 170, 180, and 190 Series (Apollo, Stradivarius, Omega) Trumpets, Cornets, Piccolos and Flügelhorns
B.A.C. Custom — Any Artist, Handcraft, or Custom Series B.A.C. trumpet with Wuqiang Jiahua valves only
Bauerfeind — VanLaar & Adams Trumpets, Cornets, Piccolos (from Adams), and Flügelhorns (except Adams F5)
Benge (L.A. & UMI) — All trumpet, cornet, and flügelhorn models (L.A. and UMI era)
Besson/B&H & York (Schreiber-Keilwerth, German) — Sovereign & Prestige Series Cornets; Preference & Eminence Series Cornets [Besson/B&H: 2001–2005; York: ~2006–2010
Besson (Buffet-Crampon, German) — Sovereign & Prestige Series Cornets and Tenor Horns [post-2011]
F.E. Olds (Old-Style) — All trumpet & cornet models with old-style valve guides (Los Angeles-era)
F.E. Olds (New-Style) — All trumpet & cornet models with new-style valve guides (Fullerton-era)
Hoxon-Gakki — CarolBrass, Eclipse, Thane (Standard Series) & similar
J. Meinlschmidt — Lotus, Thane (Performance Series), Böhme & similar
Jupiter XO — 1600I, 1602[LTR], 1604, 1624, 1700
Kanstul (Old-Style) — All OEM Series Trumpets, Cornets, Piccolos, and Flügelhorns (except Model 1025), with 2-slotted valve casings (Smith-Watkins, early Blackburn, and some B.A.C. included)
Kanstul (New-Style) — All OEM Series Trumpets, Cornets, Piccolos, and Flügelhorns (except Model 1025), with 1-slotted valve casings
Martin — All Committee and Imperial [Deluxe, Handcraft, Standard] trumpet and cornet models (between 140,000 - 210,000)
Schilke — All Series Trumpets, Cornets, Piccolos, and Flügelhorns (early-make Schilkes may vary)
S.E. Shires — All Series Trumpets, Cornets, and Piccolos (except BRAVO Series)
Spiri — All Weiner Spiri & daCarbo Trumpets and Piccolos
Stomvi — All Series Trumpets, Cornets, Piccolos, and Flügelhorns
UMI — King (“Silver Flair” [2055], “Legend” (2020, 2070), 2220SP, 1117, “System Blue” Series) & C.G. Conn (“Vintage One” [1B, 1B50C, 1FR], 51B, 52B)
Yamaha — All Pro Series Trumpets, Cornets, and Piccolos with valve stems that have a Short base (“Old Style” and “New Style” valve stems) or Tall base (“New Style”—both solid & center-cut valve stems)
You can find more information in the link below:
https://bajocmusic.com/bajoc-ergonomic-valve-guides-evgs/
If any of you have questions, I would be happy to answer them at my best convenience. I hope all of this helps!
Best regards,
Jacob _________________ https://bajocmusic.com/
I am driven to work generously in the service of others' musical creativity. |
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ldwoods Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Sep 2004 Posts: 1861 Location: Lake Charles, LA
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 3:54 am Post subject: |
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I had purchased a really nice King Silver Flair from the 1970's that also had slightly sluggish valves. I know you said you tried valve cleaning oil, but not sure exactly how you went about it.
I bought some "Clean Stroke" and used it the same as valve oil for several days. I just kept applying it to the valves every time I used the horn for several consecutive days. Once finished playing for that day, I would wipe the valves off with a lint free cloth and then re-apply the Clean Stroke. Next day I was going to play that horn, I re-applied Clean Stroke at the beginning of the session and then would again wipe it off when done practicing. I did not use any regular valve oil, just the Clean Stroke. After several days of this, I cleaned everything again, and then applied only valve oil. That solved the problem. I think you probably have a persistent build up that will take time to get cleaned up.
One more thing, I strongly urge you to NOT use toothpaste to try and hone your valves. _________________ Larry Woods
LDWoods |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1991 Location: WI
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:15 am Post subject: |
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ldwoods wrote: | I think you probably have a persistent build up that will take time to get cleaned up.
One more thing, I strongly urge you to NOT use toothpaste to try and hone your valves. |
+1 _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 526 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Stuttering on the upstroke is a sign of worn valves.
Thicker valve oil is the answer unless you want to rebuild the valves.
If Hetman 3 and Yamaha vintage don't do it, BERP 3 is the thickest valve oil on the market. Sometimes even Hetman 4 light slide oil cut with a bit of valve oil might work if you're really desperate. _________________ www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3366 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Valves slow on upstroke |
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beetleklee wrote: | ...
Is there anything else I can try before I take it to get a more in depth diagnostic? ... |
---------------------------------
Buy a bottle of plain clear unscented Mineral Oil (not 'baby oil') from pharmacy / drug store.
Clean the valves and inside the casings.
Apply the Mineral Oil onto the pistons with finger tip, and reinstall them. The valve action will be very sluggish but there should not be any sticking.
THEN, do drop-by-drop application of regular valve oil onto the pistons until acceptable valve action.
The high viscosity of the mineral oil enables it to stay on the full surface of the pistons so there aren't any 'dry spots' that lead to sticking.
Straight mineral oil also works well to make slides move easily. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 308
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 8:52 am Post subject: |
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I’d try a complete cleaning again before taking it to a tech if that doesn’t work.
Get H.W. Brass-Saver cleaning brush kit (better than standard brushes) and brush the casings *thoroughly, and every other portion of the horn you can get to.
Also use a cleaning rod wrapped with t-shirt cloth soaked with alcohol in the casings, working it from top and bottom of the casings. You can soak and ring out a bit the H.W. brushes with alcohol too. Wipe and brush the valve pistons thoroughly as well with alcohol after soaking them in warm water and a dash of Dawn dish detergent. Clean the bottom caps thoroughly with cloth again soaked with isopropyl alcohol.
Rinse everything except the felts etc under a warm to almost hot running faucet, and allow to dry completely.
I would definitely use the springs meant for the horn, and toss the Amazon springs in the trash. |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1966
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 10:22 am Post subject: Sticky upstroke |
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I'll relay my experience with valves I formally had Kanstul make for me.
Players with my earlier trumpets sometimes got in touch with me concerning similar valve problems, usually 1st and 3rd sluggish action on the upstroke.I spoke with Zig Kanstul about this and he told me the flux he used silver soldering the valve block sometimes interacted with a persons saliva after a period of time causing crystals to for around the valve ports. They were very small and no amount of cleaning got rid of them including what repair shops usually use. He recommended a very slight lapping with Lava bar soap suds applied to the piston and after removing the guides, felts etc. work the piston up and down until you feel no resistance. Lava is equivalent to 2000 grit lapping compound so you aren't in danger of ending up with loose valves. I have used this technique many times and results have been very good.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 308
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Seems I read Lava soap is what Doc Severinsen said he uses. |
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