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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 261 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 7:17 am Post subject: How much do dents in the main tube affect playing? |
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I mentioned that I got my original 1958 Conn Director 14A cleaned/reconditioned so that I can play it again. It has a dark, full tone that some of the newer cornets don't seem to have (they're brighter, more brassy than this cornet), so I really like how it sounds.
However, there are a couple of small dents in the main tube in the first bend where it comes back from the bell. It looks like the horn may have been set down a ltitle too hard at one point in its life, flattening the back of that first curve just a little bit.
My question: would getting those dents removed make any improvement in how easily the horns blows, or make any difference in the tone? _________________ Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1953 Gretsch Pathfinder
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58
Last edited by rhatheway on Fri May 03, 2024 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1871 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Maybe - maybe not - why not play it for a few months and see if you find any short comings in intonation. If you are happy with the way it plays - just leave them until you have accumulated a few more. |
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Rhondo Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 312
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Post some pictures? |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 722 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Back in the early 70's when I was an undergraduate student with too many hours and too many interests, there was a tall gangly (the guy rode around on and old English racing bike with one of those high rise banana seats, never had to chain it cause no one else could manage to get up on it) doctoral candidate in advanced mathematics that played an old tuba that allegedly had been recovered from a flood down on the Pecos River. We called him "Weird Arnold", which he accepted with a wry grin.
As someone noted recently in a speech, "Not a joke. This is the truth!"
Anyway, one spring afternoon, I was in the band hall, and Arnold was seated in front of the Strobo-Conn tuner with his tuba, a slide rule, a paper tablet, a tape measure, and a fairly sizable rubber mallet.
After 30 minutes or so of playing notes, sliding his slide rule back and forth, measuring the tuba bell section, interspersed with bouts of rubbing his chin, he measured down the side of the bell, and gave the tuba a whack with the mallet, and proceeded to test his results on the Strobo-Conn.
I asked him what it was all about. He explained there was on overtone of a particular note that he was never able to get in tune. By making a not really very big dent, he suppressed that harmonic.
He actually was a pretty good player, burdened with what we call "perfect pitch", and that mathematical perception. I guess I would have to admit that it did sound better.
Having said all that, the description of your Horn's "owee" should not intrude enough to induce turbulence or metal stress at that point, which is what Weird Arnold had done. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 261 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Andy Cooper wrote: | If you are happy with the way it plays - just leave them until you have accumulated a few more. |
Accumulated a few more? Dents or horns?
Trying not to accumulate the first, but already working on the latter. _________________ Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1953 Gretsch Pathfinder
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3367 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: How much do dents in the main tube affect playing? |
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rhatheway wrote: | ... flattening the back of that first curve just a little bit.
My question: would getting those dents removed make any improvement in how easily the horns blows, or make any difference in the tone? |
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Probably not.
I think there is some sort of 'general guideline' that unless the dent reduces the tubing area by more than about 1/3, the dent is likely to NOT have much effect.
But IF there are some notes that are noticeably poor, it might be a consideration - AFTER you've verified that there aren't more serious problems such as valve alignment, leaking water valves, pin-hole leaks in tubing, etc.
As a 1-off example, my primary instrument is French horn, and about 1 1/2 years ago it took a bad fall from chair onto asphalt - largish ugly dents in the bell tube about 1 foot back from the bell flare (most likely place for dents on horns).
I've slowly been 'massaging' and using a rolled-up towel in the tubing to raise the dents - they are about 90% raised now. Those dents didn't seem to cause a noticeable problem when it happened, and I haven't noticed that removing them has make any difference either. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 261 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like the general concensus is that since these are not major dents, they probably don't impact anything. I don't notice any intonation issues, plus there's no leaking spit valve corks, no pinhole leaks (there was one on the leadpipe decades ago, but my parents had that fixed when I was still a kid), and the horn has a great sound.
So that's just one of those cosmetic issues that maybe someday I'll get around to getting fixed. Or maybe not, they're part of the horn's history after all... _________________ Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1953 Gretsch Pathfinder
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1038 Location: Europe
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Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: How much do dents in the main tube affect playing? |
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JayKosta wrote: | I think there is some sort of 'general guideline' that unless the dent reduces the tubing area by more than about 1/3, the dent is likely to NOT have much effect. |
Another thing I've been told that the closer to the player, the higher chance the dents affect the sound in some way. I.e. dents in the leadpipe are something to worry about, dents in the bell branch generally are fine.
But I agree that unless they bother you in some way, soundwise or visually, the dents are probably fine to be left as they are. One of the first people I played with back as a kid played a cornet that 'got stuck between the kitchen door' as he used to say. The guy was generally known for having a very beautiful sound. Similarly, I've got an old beat up Buescher cornet here at home with a visually distorted bell. The loose leadpipe brace affects the sound noticeably (rattling and some slotting/tonal issues) but if held pressed, the cornet sounds very nice, so it doesn't appear like the bell damage affects the sound.
Then again, a skilled tech could probably take out those dents quickly and easily enough so if they bother you in some way, it's probably not a big deal to have them removed. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2090 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 4:58 am Post subject: |
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I have a recent dent in one of my trumpets in the bell tubing around the first valve. I absolutely cannot discern any difference in sound, intonation, blow....I might not say the same thing if a dent of the same size was in my leadpipe or main tuning slide.
Dents are often quick, easy and inexpensive for a repair technician to remove, so I'll have this one fixed eventually, but I'm in no rush given that I cannot perceive any changes resulting from the dent. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2362 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 6:27 am Post subject: |
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I think that the closer to the mouthpiece end of the trumpet, the more a dent has an affect on the play of the instrument. Size and location matter.
I try to imagine how the particular dent would affect the water flow (an easier visual for me) How much turbulence is it creating and how much that turbulence is continuing through the instrument. But whereas we fret about valve alignments (measuring to the thousandths of an inch), mouthpiece gap, how tight tubing bends are, placement of spit valves.. I'd say dents do matter.
As mentioned by another, an easy inexpensive repair. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Rwwilson Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2019 Posts: 192 Location: Austin Texas
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Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 8:57 am Post subject: |
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I think that we need to consider how skilled the player is and how this will impact his perception of his horn. I see many amateur musicians playing horns with dents and other flaws that they seem to have no concerns about. On the other hand, many of the players that post in these forums seem to be able to detect the impact of very small changes, such as the valve alignment, mouthpiece gap and others as mentioned in the previous post. I will admit that, as a serious amateur, I can detect changes that cause me to favor one horn over another but fail to be able to detect changes caused by, for example, valve cap weight, mouthpiece weight or how tightly the water valve screw is tightened. If I am to believe the many reports that these things matter I have to admit that I am not sensitive enough to detect them. |
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DAVIDTHEWRITER Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2024 Posts: 74 Location: SoCal, USA
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Similarly, I have the 1965 15A of that same legacy line. Like you said, less brassy in that era.
I worry a lot about dents in the lead pipe and anywhere BEFORE or near the valves.
Small denta after the valves, such as along the bell pipe, I worry almost none.
I think of it like a factory conveyor belt. Closer to the end is the fully formed sound?
OTOH, big or pinchy dents worry me. _________________ Against the decay of biological existence, go not quietly but damn screaming and kicking into that last night. |
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rhatheway Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Apr 2024 Posts: 261 Location: Texas
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Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks all. Since it's on the bell side and not the leadpipe side, that's probably why I don't hear any difference, so I may get them fixed at some point, but probably not until after this concert season is over. _________________ Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1953 Gretsch Pathfinder
1958 Conn Director 14A
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1977 Reynolds Medalist CR-58 |
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