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MackTheSpoon Regular Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2004 Posts: 28 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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I am unaware of any current manufacturers that produce an upturned bell model of trumpet. Is there any advantage to having the bell at a different angle? I once read a quote from Dizzy saying that he could hear himself better with that setup. I contend he stuck with the upturned bell not so much for the reason stated, but to satisfy his flair for the theatrical. (That's not a knock on Dizzy -- I'm a fan.)
The reason I say that is because other cats have used an upturned bell at various points in their career -- besides Dizzy, I've seen photographs of Lee Morgan (with Dizzy's band) and Bill Chase (with Woody Herman) playing similar horns -- but no one else stuck with it. If one could hear his/her sound more accurately, wouldn't more players be using this type of horn and manufacturers be churning them out?
Lastly, can anyone recommend a good model of trumpet for big band and/or jazz combo playing that sports such a bell setup? |
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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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Dizzy knocked his Martin committee over on a gig and because that horn uses minimal bracing, it bent the bell straight up. There is no sound difference in the horns as compared to the straight versions. The avantage is the direction of the sound. If you tend to play down this horn might be for you because it redirects the tone up and out to the audience.
horn recomendations?
Thats really a personal choice but since you said you are a Dizzy fan. Dizzy, Lee Morgan, Chet Baker, Miles Davis, Wallace Roney, Chris Botti, Blue Mitchell to really name only a few, played on the Vintage Martin Committes.
As for new off the shelf horns, Conn Vintage One, Yamaha, Schilke ,Kanstul, Taylor, Monette. etc. etc. etc. (depending on your price range ofcoarse.)
[ This Message was edited by: sounds7 on 2004-08-23 17:10 ] |
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_dcstep Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 6324 Location: Denver
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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The player hears himself better. Depending on how you hold the horn, the audience may hear you better.
Selmer-Paris makes the model 80J with an upturned bell option. Jupiter has some midrange horns with an upturned bell option and there may be one or two other makers that I can't recall right now.
Dave _________________ Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest |
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bdev Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2003 Posts: 316 Location: New York
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the upturned bell horn actually called a "Pit Horn".
These were used in the orchestra pit of a theatre so as to project the sound up rather than into a music stand. Has anybody else heard this or is it a tall tale?
_________________
Schilke B1L / GRe65M/e65S
Yamaha B.Shew Flugel / GRe65FD
Olds Super Trumpet (LA 1946)
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[ This Message was edited by: bdev on 2004-08-23 17:15 ] |
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interfx Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2001 Posts: 680 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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I had a Getzen Eterna 900H (Herriott Model), and really liked it...
Although the sound is the same - I found I could hear myself play and ended up adjusting my sound (tone, edge) when playing it... Nice horn, good gimmic @ a gig lots of people (non-trumpeters) ask questions... They all think Dizzy, and I also tell them the story about how he knocked over his horn...
Is that a true story? Or did he really try and create this... Is this Trumpet Lore -or a True Story???? |
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GMacDaddyTPO Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 1755 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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That bend looks a little too even to be a knocked over horn...but then again what do I know? |
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supportlivejazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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The horns that Diz played were made with the bend... not accidental. He had Martins and King Silver Flairs made that way and finally the Schilke that John Faddis turned him onto... which also had no spit valves. I would imagine that he played the accidentally bent horn until he was able to have one made with the bend because he liked the way it sounded and because he didn't get the name "Dizzy" because he suffered from vertigo.
Don't you love the names that jazz players end up with... particularly fond of one arm trumpet player "Wingy" Manone. |
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Tootsall Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 May 2002 Posts: 2952
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Taken from website: http://www.centrohd.com/music/allmusic/aiy1.htm
Quote:
In 1953, during a party for his wife, the members of a two-man knockabout act fell on his trumpet. The instrument was badly bent but when Gillespie tried to play it he found that, miraculously, he preferred it that way. The upward 45-degree angle of the bell allowed him to hear the notes he was playing sooner than before. In addition he found that when he was playing from a chart, and therefore was looking down, the horn was pointing outwards towards microphone or audience. He liked all these unexpected benefits and within a few weeks had arranged to have a trumpet especially constructed to incorporate them.
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Archie Sawyer Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 668
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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I believe Jupiter still makes a horn than comes with 1 regular bell and 1 up turned bell interchangeable.
Archie |
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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link tootsall.
Also if you own Dizzys book "to be or not to bob" it gives the same story. But he did have some Martin upturned Belled Committees made after that so we are all right in a sense. _________________ 47 Martin Committee #3
Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
Stomvi Mambo #5
Conn constellation 38a cor.
Courtois 301 Orchestra C
Yamaha Custom 9830 pic
Yamaha 731 /Harrelson mod |
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plp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
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textr Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1678
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Pit Horn ?
That's a new one on me , I've never heard that one ! |
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Getzen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1948
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:11 am Post subject: |
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We still make the 900H with the up turned bell. It is a standard 900 Eterna with the up turned bell and special bracing. The playing characteristics are slightly different because of the different bracing and the different bell bend, but that is the give and take you have to make if you want that style.
Brett |
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damo_4701 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 503 Location: Back in OZ now.
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:04 am Post subject: |
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There is also an indian/chinese horn out there with the bend, So it must be better for playing _________________ 2007 Eclipse MR
50's Getzen super deluxe tone balanced cornet
37' Buescher Aristocrat
53' LA Olds Ambassador cornet
64' Conn 22B victor
eclectic tastes |
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James B. Quick Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2003 Posts: 2067 Location: La Crosse, WI
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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There's a fellow that sells up-turned bell horns on eBay. I think his id is darwiner or darwinner. He calls them 'Dizzy' style horns, but the bend is in the bell bow, Diz's horns were bent at the valve cluster. 'Herriot' model horns are bent at the bow. Most seem to be chinese horns that were modified... jbqd
p.s. I like my Holton Banana horn's bell, my normal embouchure points the horn down... |
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WFUnix Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2003 Posts: 433
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'd recommend getting a tunable bell trumpet, perhaps a Schilke. This would allow you to have a standard bell and an upturned bell if you so desire. |
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JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Aug 2004 Posts: 1154
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Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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OK folks, here's the low down... King's Dizzy style horn is a fantastic player. I've played the Holton and the Jupiter, and both are nowhere close. Can't say anything about the Getzens, but the Getzen post above didn't sound too proud. I'd have to assume it plays with a bit less quality than the regular Eterna.
I have four Dizzy style horns, two Kings, one Holton, and I even have one mint gold plated Schilke in C (yes you read it right, a Schilke in C), and I promise you the King is fantastic. I can also tell you that you do hear yourself better, and you do project out into the audience better (especially if you naturally angle downward anyway), and the King's bell doesn't seem to compromise the sound quality at all. It plays great!
Just a couple more things to say... There is the showmanship factor for the jazz style soloist, great marks on the coolness scale, the audiences love to see it, and it salutes one of jazz's greatest, Dizzy Gillespie!! If you're thinking of getting one, GET THE KING IN SILVER WITH THE GOLD ACCENTS!!! Hope this helps someone out there... Tom in Texas
_________________
7 Stomvis, 6 Monettes, 9 Taylors, 8 Courtois
7 Lawlers, 4 Leblancs, 5 Bessons, 6 Kanstuls
3 Benges, 2 Blackburns, 8 Schilkes, 9 Bachs
8 Yamahas, 5 Committees, 1 Edwards Gen X
4 Marcinkeiwicz, 7 Selmers, 5 Olds, 4 Conns
and 1 Equinox!
[ This Message was edited by: JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR on 2004-08-24 22:28 ] |
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mark936 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2002 Posts: 1254 Location: Riverside,Calyfornia
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:34 am Post subject: |
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I bought a LeBlanc Herriott sonic 707 from a guy at a music store in Rochester,Mn in july of '76.
It was a great horn for marching band and I also played it in church too. Very compact pretty sound.
Silver with a first valve trigger and all the Paris engraving. |
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Getzen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1948
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:07 am Post subject: |
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I think I need to clarify my statement.
There is no lack of pride at all in the way the 900H plays. It is still a great trumpet. I was merely saying that it does indeed play slightly different than the standard 900. This is because of the different bend in the bell and the different bell bracing. I find it interesting that trumpet players claim something as minor as the material used for valve guides can change the play of a horn, but don't think a more open bell bend and different brace placement would. This is just the nature of the beast with a upturned bell. The bracing has got to be different in order to work.
So, like I said, it is something you have to deal with if you want that style of trumpet. You cannot expect a standard trumpet and one of the same configuration but with an upturned bell to play the same. The differences may be very minor, but there will be a difference.
Brett Getzen |
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dave belknap Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 677
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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I'm quite certain that any of the custom builders will build you a trumpet with, as Dizzy called it, an "up do" bell. It isn't a bad idea for those players who through force of habit, poor training or poor dentition play into the stand on a constant basis. Looking "cool" has little to do with it.
Dave Belknap
Trumpet
Local 47 AF of M
Hollywood, CA
[ This Message was edited by: dave belknap on 2004-08-26 00:48 ] |
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