College Ensemble

tcutrpt · Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2002 9:28 pm Post subject:

I don't know if this is the place to put this, but I thought I'd ask you guys' opinions on the issue.

I'm a junior at TCU and recently auditioned for orchestra. I played a very respectable audition that ranked me top among the students here. Instead of getting the principle position, however, they asked a professional player from the community to come and play lead.
TCU's orchestra has always been a student ensemble and there has never been an instance where this type of thing has happened to the best of my knowledge. I'm at a loss to understand why this situation is different. I'm paying money to attend college so I can get valuable playing experiences, especially principle trumpet in orchestra. I know that I am highly capable of playing the music, so it isn't a question of that. Also, I have not even been given a chance to play the part. It would be different if after a month, I wasn't sounding good. That I could understand, but it is not the case.

I guess I just wanted to hear what you guys think about the situation. Ever since I started high school, I've dreamed of playing principle in an ensemble. I've worked extremely hard and finally become one of the best in the studio and very worthy of the position. Am I just horribly out of place in this matter, or do I have a very strong right to the position like I feel I do?

Matt Cyr

Al Cass · Regular Member Joined: 27 Jun 2002 Posts: 81 Location: USA

Matt,
That's horrible...you need to raise hell! You've already made the obvious points as to why this is not a good situation. Meet with your teacher and the dean..threaten to transfer-that will make them listen!
good luck...

Erin C · Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2002 10:39 pm Post subject:

That's certainly no way to run a college orchestra... for the school's sake too, don't they want you to be successful and then tell everyone that you went to their school? How can they expect you to get enough experience playing second to a pro in a college orchestra? And didn't even give you a chance? Someone needs to be yelled at! Good luck in pursuing this, let us know how it turns out.

Erin -iii<
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"If it is true that love makes the world go round, then of course there'll always be music to spark the romance of life."
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jtpro1 · Regular Member Joined: 04 May 2002 Posts: 47

Matt,

You should voice your concerns to Mr. Burgess. If Mr. Burgess was actually the one playing principal, that would be a different story because you can learn a lot sitting next to your teacher in a "professional" situation. As a faculty member, he will be more effective speaking to the orchestra director or the dean.

Good Luck!

SHS_Trumpet · Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2002 10:08 am Post subject:

Just Curious if I know the guy what's his name?
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Andrew Fowler
MYNWA
"90% of trumpet music is below high C"

pair of kings · Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2002 7:41 pm Post subject:

This is an issue I run into with high schools and colleges from the end of being the 'pro' called in. What I get most is musicals but I know that local college orchestras do hire community players. I really feel that the students should be getting the responsibilty and the experience. Some of the directors say that the students will learn from playing 2nd to a 'pro', but to me 'student' ensembles should be students.

bobwhite · Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2002 10:03 pm Post subject:

I agree that this situation sounds bad. I wouldn't "raise hell" if I were you, though. Just talk to your teacher, or whoever listened to the auditions/made the decision, and insist politely on a thorough explanation. You are owed that much for sure!

In general, I think that making a big stink about unfair situations is counter-productive. You should always insist on fairness in situations where it is lacking, but in a way that will make people look at you positively rather than as a whiner (not that you are!)

Your frustration is understandable, but don't forget to feel good about your hard work. Congratulations on winning the audition!

tcutrpt · Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2002 10:20 pm Post subject:

Thanks guys, your responses help a lot! Bob, thanks for your post. I hadn't thought of it quite like that and I agree with you. The only things I really want to happen is to be given an honest explanation and be given a chance to prove myself in the principle position. I will certainly post something as soon as I find more out. Thanks again.

Matt

isabelle · Regular Member Joined: 29 Jul 2002 Posts: 41

I know I have a completely different oppinion than everyone, but hear me out. I'm a college sophomore and play second trumpet in our school's orchestra, while a professional plays principle. I understand why you're upset about the audition. I would probably feel the same way if our orchestra had always been made up just of students (my orchestra is half students and half professionals). Honestly though, I like having a pro sit ahead of me. He's an incredible musician and someone that inspires me to work even harder, so that I can play even half as well as he. Having pro musicians in our orchestra really raises the quality of our orchestra and forces the students to rehearse and perform up to a standard closer to that of professional musicians. Look at the good side of the situation. You are capable of learning and improving so much with a professional sitting next to you. Hope everything goes well for you!
~Isabelle

tcutrpt · Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2002 8:08 pm Post subject:

Isabelle, I understand your opinion, but it is my contention that I can learn and grow much more by being given principal experience in the orchestra. Sure I won't sound like a pro, because I'm not there yet! I will however gain so much musicality and confidence by having to perform at a high level because of my own standards. Since it is my career goal to play principal in an orchestra, I NEED that experience now in order to improve aspects of my playing that might not otherwise be as easily noticable if I was playing a lower part. Also, I have my professor and numerous orchestral recordings to emulate. I don't need to sit next to a professional in order to desire to improve. This is my reasoning behind the whole issue. Maybe it isn't the best, but I feel I deserve the chair and a chance to gain invaluable experience playing first part.

Matt

Still Trying · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:27 pm Post subject:

For what it's worth, TCU, I agree with you, as far as the school short changing you with respect to your education. I played second trumpet professionally in a local symphony for 10 years. The requirements for a good second trumpet player in a symphony are not the same as the requirements of a good principal trumpet player. Since you are a student at TCU, and yours is a school ( that means amatuer) orchestra, I think it their responsibility to place your education requirements at a higher priority than trying to make the group sound better by any means available. If the college quarterback was replaced by a pro, every newspaper in the country would carry the story. I don't see the difference, myself.

That having been said, if the decision to hire a pro stands, it's not the end of the world. If I remember his biography correctly, Bud Herseth had no experience as a principal, when he was hired by the CSO. And he did pretty good, after someone finally gave him a chance.

I also might add that being "morally right" in this situation does not require you to proceed in an immoral fashion. You are attending a Christian college. Giving you the benefit of a doubt, I will assume you are a Christian. The Bible says in effect, it is better to be cheated, than to cheat someone else. There is also a greater reward from your Heavenly Father for enduring a wrong graciously, than for fighting it. It has to do with character development that is every bit as important as development of your trumpet skills. When and if you do play principal in a symphony, the job will come from your Father. Remember, "What do we have that we did not receive..."? So I recommend that you ask for an explanation, as Bob, ( I think) suggested, but be willing to accept the decision, if it stands. I promise you, it won't be the only time someone is unfair to you. God always has a reason for what He allows in our lives. As a Christian, if you can't handle this type of problem, you will encounter it over and over until you finally learn to handle it.
_________________
S. T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

pfrank · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:36 pm Post subject:

But then again, this country wasn't created by pacifists. The founding fathers were by and large Deists who believed that God created the world but that it is up to us to use the facilities that God gave us to make it a better place than it was under the old authoritarian order.

Still Trying · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:20 pm Post subject:

Everybody who supported the War of Independence from England was not a deist. If I remember correctly, Patrick Henry's famous speech, delivered in a church, in which he said, "I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death", was precipitated by the hanging of a Baptist minister, who had preached against British Colonial policies. The Patriots were willing to kill for the political freedom of a nation. They were also willing to be killed for the same cause. But I personally think playing principal in a college symphony is on a much lower order of criticality.

If Mr. TCU is a Christian, however, it may be important to him as a person how he responds to this situation. If you're not a Christian, you won't understand, nor agree with, anything I have to say about this situation. But a Christian should recognize that his enemy in a situation like the one described is not an enemy of flesh and blood. It's not an enemy you can kill with bullets either. Assuming he is a Christian, if TCU is willing to go to war over this, he has just revealed a hot button to his real enemy, and that enemy will keep pushing that button as long as he gets a response. TCU definitely needs to fight, but with the right weapons. In a spiritual battle, our human enemies are only our enemies because the Lord has not shown them the same grace, He has shown to us. If He had, they wouldn't be our enemy. They would be our brother in Christ. Turning the other cheek and praying for your enemies are not defensive weapons in a spiritual fight. They're offensive weapons. If you can lead somebody to Christ by over coming evil with good, you have removed a weapon Satan was using against you and added it to God's arsenal. Remember Christ prayed for His Father to forgive the Roman soldiers, who had just nailed Him to a cross, stripped Him naked in front of His mother and everyone else in the crowd at His execution, and were gambling to see who was going to be able to keep His clothes.

Now, I know you think I'm crazy. But I'm hoping TCU has the mind set to comprehend what I'm trying to tell him.
_________________
S. T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

tcutrpt · Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2002 9:47 pm Post subject:

S.T., I appreciate your comments. Yes, I am a Christian and am very familiar with what you are talking about.

This is basically what I have decided to do. I will play in the ensemble because it is what I love. If anyone will openly protest this, it will be a professor, not myself. I don't believe it is within my role as a student to question this decision even though I know it is wrong. I also feel that if I did, it would create a lot of harsh feelings. It sucks and I hate it, but it is beyond my control to do anything about it that would benefit me.

I hope that my playing will speak for itself and eventually earn me a chance to play principle. However, I now realize that it is the attitude and confidence that is the most important part, not the chair itself. I will continue doing what I do and it will pay off. Maybe not this year or next year or in ten years, but it will pay off. During all of this, I realized that my dreams are far to valuable to me to be destroyed over something beyond my control.

It is a very unfortunate situation. I am unable to do anything to make it right. The only thing I can do is to keep playing at a high level and continue to improve. I really appreciate everyone's replies. I'm glad I have your support and your opinions did help me come to my decision. Thank you again for the honest replies! I'm so glad that I have such a great forum of people to communicate with in the music world.

Matt Cyr

Still Trying · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 5:22 am Post subject:

TCU,

I think you are making a very mature decision. But there is one more thing you can do about the situation. Every Christian has the right to "rest in the Lord". You can take this problem to your Father. Since you are not trying to solve this problem by yourself and in your own power, you are in a perfect position to have Him handle it. Remember the scriptures tell us that "His strength is made perfect in our weakness." Actually it says His strength is brought to its fullest measure of perfection in the sphere of our weakness. Paul went on to say he would glory in his own infirmaties, because when he was weak, he was actually strong. Christians can't win spiritual wars, but they have to show up for the battle. That's what it means to rest in God. The children of Israel rested by fighting giants, when they entered the land God had promised Abraham. They couldn't win, but they had to show up for the fight. David rested by going after Goliath with a rock and a whole lot of faith. But the Bible says that it was God who killed Goliath. At other times you just have to stand still and let God handle it. "Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord". Turn this whole thing over to the Lord, and let Him work it out. But don't have a will in it. Let Him work it out His way.

The same God who has given you your talent and desire to play trumpet has your career under His perfect control.

Peace.
_________________
S. T.

What do we have that we did not receive, and if we received it, why do we glory, as if we received it not?

pfrank · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 6:31 am Post subject:

_Don Herman · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 6:56 am Post subject:

Nicholas Dyson · Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:34 pm Post subject:

TCUtrumpet wrote: I don't believe it is within my role as a student to question this decision even though I know it is wrong. I also feel that if I did, it would create a lot of harsh feelings. It sucks and I hate it, but it is beyond my control to do anything about it that would benefit me.

ND: Since you are an adult, and PAYING for your education there, it is well within your role to question HOW your education goes down. So many university conductors forget that they are there (and paid!) to EDUCATE people, not to 'field' the best band/orchestra by any means possible.

I'm not by any means suggesting that you go and raise a big stink. That is rarely the way to do things. But, a good conversation with the powers that be is DEFINATELY in order! I would say that if you haven't left any important details out, they don't have a leg to stand on with their decision. You're paying the money and you're an adult. If you went on a car lot and paid for a new 4 door car, I would guess that you would raise a stink if they produced a 2 door for you to drive home in. Same deal, except that when choosing a university program to be involved with, you sign on to their curriculum. Have any of your syllabi reflected that professionals would be brought in in your stead? Try turning in a Bach Fugue to your 18th Cent. Counterpoint teacher. When he/she complains, tell them that you thought a professional would do a better job, so you 'rested' instead.
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Nicholas Dyson
Ottawa, Canada