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butxifxnot
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 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Resistance comes from the lips:
The lips against the horn, or the lips against each other? And how much push should there be in that resistance, given the fact that you're blowing out less air and don't need to be mashing them together to create (unnecessariy) resistance?
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Kevin Burns
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| butxifxnot wrote: | | And how much push should there be in that resistance, given the fact that you're blowing out less air and don't need to be mashing them together to create (unnecessariy) resistance? |
Look at one of the videos where Jim says “some players like the resistance to be here” (he points near the bell) “and some like it here” (points near the mouthpiece). This is the change of resistance that occurs when you don’t ‘push’ the air past that first place of resistance. If you are feeling the resistance near the end of the horn (like I used to) then you are probably pushing lots of air and ‘meat’ into the mouth piece and blowing past those harmonics that bounce out 'on their own' so to speak. If you back off and find that earlier ‘sweet spot,’ you can feel the resonance occurring right where your lips meet the mouthpiece. Experiment. You'll discover it. |
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michael manthey
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Kevin ... good post.
I'd also like to add a comment about note slotting, which almost falls into this subject. For the readers, get ahold of Bob Findley's book. It can be ordered off his website. When you've found the 'slot' for any particular note and apply what Kevin posted, from his time with Jim, it'll also help keeping that 'sweet spot' and area of resisitance more towards the mpc end of the horn, and it'll greatly assist in playing more efficiently.
All the best.
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Derek Reaban
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:23 am Post subject: |
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I have enjoyed reading many of the articles at Jay Friedman’s web site recently. In the article titled Slurs and Sound he describes the same idea that is presented so well by Kevin Burns in this topic.
| Quote: | | [Kevin Burns]If you are feeling the resistance near the end of the horn (like I used to) then you are probably pushing lots of air and ‘meat’ into the mouth piece and blowing past those harmonics that bounce out 'on their own' so to speak. If you back off and find that earlier ‘sweet spot,’ you can feel the resonance occurring right where your lips meet the mouthpiece. Experiment. You'll discover it. |
While Jay’s words are a little different, the concept is exactly the same, and I like how these words seem to dovetail together. I’ve taken the liberty to bold some of the key phrases in Jay’s article below:
Excerpt from Jay’s website:
| Quote: | What's the best way to get a good sound? Do you blow air through the horn and try to project the sound as far as possible? That sounds logical. Lately I've been thinking that maybe the trombone world generally has been blowing the air through the horn a little too enthusiastically. I'm all in favor of fast air when playing soft. There you need a laser beam at very soft dynamics to project the sound and musical line. But at middle and above dynamics maybe we have a tendency to blow the sound through the horn before the air fills the horn with resonance.
At a nice comfortable MF I like to think about keeping the sound in the instrument as long as possible. This is a mental concept which gives me maximum resonance.
Take the solo from the Saint-Saens 3rd. You have to play it a good MP in a performance. Instead of trying to project the sound, try to fill the horn with as much resonance as it will hold and keep it in the area of the bell. Let the sound project from a kind of spill over of resonance, always feeling that the horn is filled with resonance before it leaves the instrument. This, as I said, is more a mental concept than a physical one, and anyone who has delved into these things will know that a mental concept is a much more powerful stimulus than a physical one.
The louder the dynamic the more resonance you try to keep in the horn before it leaves. The softer you play, and I'm talking piano and pianissimo, the more you try to narrow the bore on your horn with your air to focus the sound. Whatever sound you try to make it must be resonant and clear.
Many people have a hard time making a clear sound. We must strive for a clear sound that fills the horn as long as possible before going forward. If a player can't get a clear sound, most likely it's the start of the note that doesn't have enough velocity of the air stream, or perhaps the sound doesn't speak immediately which has a profound effect on the tone quality of the note. |
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hvand
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: |
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I'm glad to see this thread continue. It has been the most helpful one for me in the forum.
Thanks for the reference Derek. I thought I had all the good trumpet websites bookmarked ... I guess I missed one.
About three pages ago, someone posted a clip of Mr. Mendez talking about breath control just before he rips into the Mexican Hat Dance. It's funny, but I have worked on playing longer phrases on one breath for years (e.g.
"how many times can you play through a Clarke study on one breath?"). I have always tried to improve by taking in more air. What I should have been concentrating on is playing more efficiently.
Now that I am a bit more clued in, I've found that my biggest inhale does not produce my longest phrase. This is particularly true if I add double tonguing to the exercise. Nothing demonstrates playing efficiency (or the lack thereof) like long tonguing passages.
I'll never play like Mr. Mendez, but at least I have a better understanding of what he accomplished.
Hank |
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Derek Reaban
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Hank,
| Quote: | | It's funny, but I have worked on playing longer phrases on one breath for years…I have always tried to improve by taking in more air. What I should have been concentrating on is playing more efficiently. |
I’ll have to be honest. I looked at this post and the video in early November and then didn’t follow it (not a forum I frequent). I clicked on it last night and saw Kevin’s words, which jogged some memories about Jay’s article. I did a quick scan through some of the posts, but I didn’t read everything in here, so this may have been covered already.
When I think of efficiency (and longer phrases), I find that my best tool to target this aspect of my playing is to focus on improved response. This leads to enhanced vibrancy in the vibrating surfaces which then requires less air to activate the vibration. In my opinion, this needs to happen in conjunction with the idea that Jim Manley and Kevin Burns (and many of the other poster that have chimed in) discuss in the video.
David Krauss mentioned that it’s common to work too hard and make the aperture accept more air than it needs to respond. That seems to be a common thread here. When we back off on the flow rate, and really focus on the vibrant quality present in the sound (not simply a loud sound), we are allowing ourselves to develop more immediacy in our response. This is a really good thing!
When the vibrating surface in your lips responds immediately to the least amount of air, you are working with a set-up that allows the ideas that are presented in this post to actually work. It takes time to get to this point if you have muscled the horn for years and played with too much air flow. When more lip stuff is vibrating, there is just a stronger signal that is going into the horn.
The other thing that is very important to understand is that you don’t have to play so loud for the sound to carry (project). A clear sound, that has lots of overtones, will completely bury a player that is simply trying to play loud when comparing both players’ sound at a distance.
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Billy B
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: |
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<The other thing that is very important to understand is that you don’t have to play so loud for the sound to carry (project). A clear sound, that has lots of overtones, will completely bury a player that is simply trying to play loud when comparing both players’ sound at a distance.>
Thank you. It is interesting to see what each individual gets from the same video(s).
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JoeCool
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: |
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I've got a question about the breath. I understand the 'vader' thing and can do this. I feel the difference between this breath and how I always took a breath. (up high) In the video Jim is exhaggerating the breath and making the vader noise. But when using it practically, one needs to do it quicker without the vader thing. Any tips? Or do you just work at it with lots of reps.
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Derek Reaban
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Joe,
This is an excerpt from a masterclass that I attended with Jens Lindemann. This is very similar to what Jim discusses in the video.
| Quote: | | He went on to discuss breathing and talked about the “egg breath” (a deep sound on the inhale). He held his whole hand up with his index finger pressed against his lips from his chin up to his nose. He said, “tension is the enemy”. Since Allen Vizzutti was in the room, he commented that when he stands beside Allen he is very aware of the length of the inhale. Where possible, take longer, slower, relaxed breaths. It’s a very good way to diminish tension and harmful nervousness. I’ve found this to be true when I work regularly with my breathing bag. |
Someone asked me for more details on this in a PM, and I sent them this response.
| Quote: | For the egg breath, consider what it would feel like to have an entire egg inside your mouth. Really open up your oral cavity (in a relaxed way) but don’t open your mouth much at all. The hole between your lips should be no bigger than say a dime.
To add a little resistance, Jens suggested that we use our hand in a specific way. Point your thumb towards you and put it under your chin. As you do this, press your index finger (which is point straight up) against your lips and your nose.
Now take in a deep, slow intake breath (with your mouth in the egg shape), and you will hear a rushing sound as the air enters your mouth around your finger. That feeling of a complete, full (but relaxed), pressurized breath was what Jens was demonstrating. |
As far as breathing more quickly, I’ll bet you’ll find that if you take a longer, slower inhale as Jens and Allen suggest (when you have the time), it will positively impact your playing. If you breathe like this at every practical opportunity, when it’s time for a quicker breath, your body will just do it without having to think about it.
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EdMann
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Valuable stuff, but I had to laugh at the hand to mouth description. It sounds like a lesson on how to smoke cigarettes.
Ed Mann
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butxifxnot
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Burns wrote: | | butxifxnot wrote: | | And how much push should there be in that resistance, given the fact that you're blowing out less air and don't need to be mashing them together to create (unnecessariy) resistance? |
Look at one of the videos where Jim says “some players like the resistance to be here” (he points near the bell) “and some like it here” (points near the mouthpiece). This is the change of resistance that occurs when you don’t ‘push’ the air past that first place of resistance. If you are feeling the resistance near the end of the horn (like I used to) then you are probably pushing lots of air and ‘meat’ into the mouth piece and blowing past those harmonics that bounce out 'on their own' so to speak. If you back off and find that earlier ‘sweet spot,’ you can feel the resonance occurring right where your lips meet the mouthpiece. Experiment. You'll discover it. |
Thank you, Kevin and DR, for your very helpful posts.
I think there's an enormous amount of info in this thread.
But just for clarification:
there's lots of information here about what needs to happen for full resonance in all registers. How do we work on attaining that? I know I am very used to doing exactly what is being talked about here (forcing the lips to deal with more air than necessary).
So what's the focus on moving away from it? Whisper-quiet practice? Manley mentioned in one video about how he'd work a long time at getting his notes to speak (loud and) clear "without any air".
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Kevin Burns
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Derek Reaban wrote: | | As far as breathing more quickly, I’ll bet you’ll find that if you take a longer, slower inhale as Jens and Allen suggest (when you have the time), it will positively impact your playing. If you breathe like this at every practical opportunity, when it’s time for a quicker breath, your body will just do it without having to think about it. |
This is perfect advice for practicing any new technique. It's all about knowing what to practice then giving you mind/body time to make it stick with practice. Like riding a bicycle, once you figure it out you don't forget how. Maybe that's stating the obvious.
| butxifxnot wrote: | But just for clarification:
there's lots of information here about what needs to happen for full resonance in all registers. How do we work on attaining that? |
Start with using the techniques demonstrated by Jim on that video. The low register is an easy place to find that new place of resistance on the horn. Once the feeling of the change of resistance becomes familiar to you then you can begin to stretch out the rest of the horn with it - inlcuding register, volume, technique, etc.
| butxifxnot wrote: | | I know I am very used to doing exactly what is being talked about here (forcing the lips to deal with more air than necessary). So what's the focus on moving away from it? |
If you are doing what this post has been about you will hear a nice full sound without the 'tanking up' approach, because of the idea of letting the horn resonate - the information is all there on this thread. So 'backing off' is not about playing softer, it's about getting just as big a sound from a different approach to the air. I'm trying not get repetitive again. Go back to the video and watch what Jim does with me. That is the beginning of your 'baby steps.' You can build from there.
| Derek Reaban wrote: | | A clear sound, that has lots of overtones, will completely bury a player that is simply trying to play loud when comparing both players’ sound at a distance. |
This is absoloutey true! I've enjoyed all of Derek's posts and quotes. |
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Trptbenge
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Kevin and Derek I agree on the sound issue. A couple of years ago Chris Martin was at the annual Western Carolina University Trumpet Festival. As part of his clinic he was working with a guy who was going to audition for a position in an orchestra (maybe for Syracuse NY Orchestra) anyway, the guy was blowing his head off trying to play loud and project. Chris was relaxed was playing with, what seemed like, very little effort. However, not only was his sound larger then the student you could actually feel the vibration. Those of us in audience just looked at each other in amazement.
Just as a side note the WCU Trumpet Festival will have Allen Vizzutti as the guest artist on the weekend of January 18th.
Mike
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butxifxnot
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Burns wrote: | | Derek Reaban wrote: | | As far as breathing more quickly, I’ll bet you’ll find that if you take a longer, slower inhale as Jens and Allen suggest (when you have the time), it will positively impact your playing. If you breathe like this at every practical opportunity, when it’s time for a quicker breath, your body will just do it without having to think about it. |
This is perfect advice for practicing any new technique. It's all about knowing what to practice then giving you mind/body time to make it stick with practice. Like riding a bicycle, once you figure it out you don't forget how. Maybe that's stating the obvious.
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I believe I've heard it takes 21 days for something physical to become a habit, if done daily. *nods*
| Quote: |
| butxifxnot wrote: | But just for clarification:
there's lots of information here about what needs to happen for full resonance in all registers. How do we work on attaining that? |
Start with using the techniques demonstrated by Jim on that video. The low register is an easy place to find that new place of resistance on the horn. Once the feeling of the change of resistance becomes familiar to you then you can begin to stretch out the rest of the horn with it - inlcuding register, volume, technique, etc.
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Mmhm...
Did you find that the technique translated to all registers rather readily? It seems like it would (give or take the old habit trying to come back).
| Quote: |
| butxifxnot wrote: | | I know I am very used to doing exactly what is being talked about here (forcing the lips to deal with more air than necessary). So what's the focus on moving away from it? |
If you are doing what this post has been about you will hear a nice full sound without the 'tanking up' approach, because of the idea of letting the horn resonate - the information is all there on this thread. So 'backing off' is not about playing softer, it's about getting just as big a sound from a different approach to the air. I'm trying not get repetitive again. Go back to the video and watch what Jim does with me. That is the beginning of your 'baby steps.' You can build from there.
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Ah. Thank you. That's important, I think. With whisper-quiet practice, you run the risk of underusing air and overusing embouchure, because there are so many variables you're changing: air volume, horn resistance, lip compression, air compression, and dynamic. By keeping the dynamic constant rather than making it quiet, you remove that facet you have to focus on.
I'm gonna go practice. Thanks!
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Kevin Burns
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| butxifxnot wrote: | | I believe I've heard it takes 21 days for something physical to become a habit, if done daily. |
I've been playing for 28 years. I'm still waiting on somethings to become a habit!  |
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Derek Reaban
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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butxifxnot,
| butxifxnot wrote: | | I believe I've heard it takes 21 days for something physical to become a habit, if done daily. |
Well, let's call it somewhere between 21 days and 28 years! I've referred to an article by John Hagstrom quite a few times in my posts, and this topic seems appropriate to bring John's words into the discussion again:
"Progress is the result of new awareness in balance with repeated experience. The first step is to be aware of what improvements you are looking for and having the intensity of concentration to sustain that conception as you make repeated attempts. When you are successful and are able to recreate your success over and over again, new habits begin to form, but they are crude at first. It generally takes a year to take yourself from crudity to mastery when forming a new habit. Mastery is what is needed to be professionally competent and competitive. It is when you can perform a given task consistently well under pressure – without having a second chance."
Those are extremely powerful words. Read them many times to understand what he is telling you related to the concepts in this topic!
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Burns wrote: | I think ‘use that place of resistance’ ... It just comes from a different place of resistance on the horn. I think I actually can find the sound I want faster with the change of resistance, because that place frees up the horn to ring on it’s own
Kevin |
Anybody have any idea how this compares to Bill Adam's comment "out front?"
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Billy B
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | Kevin Burns wrote: | I think ‘use that place of resistance’ ... It just comes from a different place of resistance on the horn. I think I actually can find the sound I want faster with the change of resistance, because that place frees up the horn to ring on it’s own
Kevin |
Anybody have any idea how this compares to Bill Adam's comment "out front?" |
I think it is the same thing said in a different way.
As far as keeping that resonance from the middle to high register I like golf analogies. You swing the 3 iron exactly like you swing the 9 iron and the ball goes farther. Our tendency though is to swing the 3 iron harder, often missing the ball entirely.
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butxifxnot
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | razeontherock wrote: | | Kevin Burns wrote: | I think ‘use that place of resistance’ ... It just comes from a different place of resistance on the horn. I think I actually can find the sound I want faster with the change of resistance, because that place frees up the horn to ring on it’s own
Kevin |
Anybody have any idea how this compares to Bill Adam's comment "out front?" |
I think it is the same thing said in a different way.
As far as keeping that resonance from the middle to high register I like golf analogies. You swing the 3 iron exactly like you swing the 9 iron and the ball goes farther. Our tendency though is to swing the 3 iron harder, often missing the ball entirely. |
I feel like I've done exactly that.
Coming into college, I've built up strength to swing stronger with the 9 (legit range: big air), and when I go back to the 3 (high range: smaller air), I end up with divots all over the place. Now all I can do is putt with the thing. x_x (Playing too quietly). ;D Back to square one.
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michael manthey
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Kevin Burns wrote: | | butxifxnot wrote: | | I believe I've heard it takes 21 days for something physical to become a habit, if done daily. |
I've been playing for 28 years. I'm still waiting on somethings to become a habit! |
I've been playing for 37 years, habits?, I don't have any habits, nope, not one, none at all, can't think of one ... wait ... nope, no habits!
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