Mouthpiece change: suggestions?

JackD · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:33 am Post subject:

I recently changed from playing a cornet with a 5C mp to a trumpet with a 7C, and it has been recommended to me that I go for a bigger mp soon.

I play some jazz and some classical, and I'm not really interested in super-high register playing. I'm more concerned about getting a rich tone.

I have to admit I know virtually nothing about the merits of different mouthpiece sizes or makes, so what sort of thing should I look at getting?

Annie · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:08 am Post subject:

I know that the 3C will help you strengthen your chops and help you towards a full, rich tone. It at first hinders your upper range until you start breathing correctly with it though.
_________________
~Annie

*I may not be great yet, but I'm working hard on it and one day I'm gonna be there.*

musiclifeline · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:34 am Post subject:

If you were comfortable on the cornet with the 5C mp, why not try a 5C mp on the trumpet? It's good for a full sound and it won't destroy your range...

samlg · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:50 am Post subject:

a simple version of what different MP's do is..

big and deep = rich tone, less ease in range.
small and shallow = brighter tone, easyer high range.

for more detail have a look at the schilke archives. one of ren's things was about MP's and what they do, quite interesting, also if you can get your hands on a bach catalog, they have some of that info in the front cover. 1 1/4 C seems to be a poular for classical playing.

but i would suggest getting something that you are comfortable playing and will give you what you want. its all good saying get this MP but if it dont work for you its no good.

sam

PJB · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 10:25 am Post subject:

I played a Bach 7CW for a very long time--over 20 years--but began wanting a piece in a larger, more comfortable (for me) diameter that would also facilitate easier access to the upper register. At the time, a lot of my playing was with a large dance band. I found what I wanted in the GR66**, one of GR's signature mouthpieces.

I bought the piece through Northern Brass after completing the GR mouthpiece questionnaire and having a very helpful e-mail dialogue with Bruce Lee. In very short order, Bruce recommended a GR66** to me but also recommended the GR66*** as an alternative choice. Based upon Bruce's comments and my occasional need for a less commercial sounding mouthpiece, I will most likely add the 66*** to my collection real soon.
_________________
Pete Blaise

1974 Benge 3X Bb
1950 Olds Super
2002 Yamaha Xeno 8445GS C
2004 Kanstul ZKF 1525 Flugel

JackD · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 11:31 am Post subject:

So it sounds like I would prefer to eventually play on a big mouthpiece, but presumably I should graduate my approach to it so I don't kill my playing.

Can you recommend some brands to try, aside from Bach and Schilke?

This has been very helpful, thanks.

PJB · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:40 pm Post subject:

In addition to Bach and Schilke as mouthpiece manufacturers, you have many other choices available today including (but not limited to) GR, Curry, Monette, Marcinkiewicz, Bob Reeves, Warburton, and others. You can learn much more about each of them via the following websites:

GR: http://www.grmouthpieces.com/
Curry: http://www.currympc.com/
Monette: http://www.monette.net/newsite/
Marcinkiewicz: http://home.teleport.com/~mmpco/
Bob Reeves: http://www.bobreeves.com/
Warburton: http://www.warburton-usa.com/

I recommend you find someone knowledgeable to help guide you on your mouthpiece safari. To head off on your own could get expensive real quick! Also, I recommend you search TH for past threads on the above. You'll find each has their proponents as well as their detractors. While I found what I wanted in a GR piece, they are not the only answer.

Good luck!
_________________
Pete Blaise

1974 Benge 3X Bb
1950 Olds Super
2002 Yamaha Xeno 8445GS C
2004 Kanstul ZKF 1525 Flugel

rjzeller · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 7:45 pm Post subject:

I play a Marcinkiewicz C5 (concert hall mouthpiece) and it blows my old megatone out of the water. One thing to consider: everyone's chops are different. You will react differently to a 3C than I will. MOST important in my opinion is to find a size (diameter) that feels comfortable on your chops, cup depth notwithstanding. For most adults this will be in the 3-5 range. I know some folks who use a 1 1/4 C and even have a student playing very well on a 1C. I've used a 2B and 5B in the past as well as a straight 2 (effectively a 2A), but in the end the 3 rim was best for me. Don't worry about range at all...you'll learn to master that with any mouthpiece. Besides, range is more a factor of cup depth than it is rim diameter anyway. Too big and your tone will weaken and spread out. Too narrow and you will sound forced and airy (too much up front resistance).

Once you find a comfortable rim, from whichever manufacturer, then find a cup depth that works for you. Here you'll find a lot a variance but in the end if you're not sure, go with a C cup. I found that my C5, which is deeper than the 3C megatone I used to play, is actually easier for me in the upper register, so manufacturers can be considerably different in feel and playability even when the "specs" are the same or similar.

My 2 pennies, but I've switched many a student from one piece to another and they've all thanked me for it. Again, start with what feels the best and is easiest to blow, then progress from there.

drunkiq · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:42 pm Post subject:

My 2 cents...

I am guessing that you have not played but a couple of years... If I am wrong then please correct me..

Mouthpiece safaris should always be done with a mentor/teacher when you are starting out...

Most people that I meet that have not been playing long really cannot tell the subtle differences between various mouthpieces and cannot even differentiate variances of intonation, response and resistance of different horns…

For now I would have to agree with the person that said you need to decide witch of your two current mouthpieces you like best - as far as how comfortable it is on you lip. If it is the 5c then get the trumpet equivalent. If the 7c is the one you like then stick with it….

There are a lot of technical things that changes in a mouthpiece can do, but there is a learning curve that must be surpassed before you can take real advantages of minor tweaks that they may offer.

For instance when you grow up you learn to walk… you parents may buy you some cheap shoes… later in life you may want to join the track team and get a good pair of running shoes.. if you get really good then you would have a custom shoe made that would properly mold to your feet to help you be more efficient…

There is no point in giving a 4 year old a custom molded pair of running shoes that cannot be used anywhere but the track…

So when you are ready to change mouthpieces? – For now - ask your coach!

Hope this helps…

Best wishes,

-marc

James B. Quick · Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:33 pm Post subject:

"big and deep = rich tone, less ease in range.
small and shallow = brighter tone, easyer high range. " SAMLG

Oh , so sorry, Sam, I must disagree. My 70's mouthpiece brochure from Schilke says "... a large mouthpiece actually adds to range and endurance..."

I spent years working my way up from a Schilke 11 to a Schilke 18. I now play on a custom Callet Mthpce made by V. Fridman that is even bigger. I would have to say:

big and deep = rich tone, increase in range and endurance
small and shallow =crappy, thin tone in all registers.....

JackD · Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:39 am Post subject:

Drunkiq, I've actually been playing for 10 years, but all that time was on the same cornet and same mouthpiece, so I have never experimented with different mouthpieces or even played on a different one, until very recently when I bought my first trumpet.

I'm looking for something that will last me, because I'm serious about trumpet playing. However, I'm slightly nervous of changing too much before I leave school for university / college (I'm in my last year of school).

I think I will ask my teacher (who has recommended a mouthpiece change) to come and help me try and test some mouthpieces.

Thanks a lot for the considerable amount of advice and information!

samlg · Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 2:32 am Post subject:

James B. Quick thats a good point, the advantage of having a stomvi MP is you can see the effects on the same MP. i must say now thinking about it that on a shallow MP i have less endurance, then again i dont play in the stave with it! but i can see with the A cup my range is less, about CC but with the smaller F cup its up to, well the skys the limit! sounds crap though!

this is what i have in my Bach Catalogue:

RIM:
wide: increases endurance.
narrow: improves flexability and range.
round: improves comfort.
sharp increases brilliance and precision of attack.

CUP:
large: increases volume and controll.
small: relives fatigue and weakness.
deep: darkens tone, especialy in low register.
shallow brightens tone, improves response, especialy in high register.

THROAT:
large: increases blowing freedom, volume, tone; sharpens high register (larger sizes also sharpen low register).
small: increases resistance, endurance, brilliance; flattens high register.

im a big fan of BIG MP's (im bringing out my own MP's called the Prescot series!) i like the sound they produce, endurance shouldnt be an issue, that will improve the more you play. i play on front row in a brass band, all the other player are wornout after about two hours and im good for another two after that, all down to howmuch i practice.

im not going to dispute the Schilke, if he wrote it, it must be right!

have fun, sam

drunkiq · Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:50 am Post subject:

Jack,

in that case lets try to educate you a little - my spin on mpc equipment:

The first thing you should know, most trumpet players have no idea why they play on the mouthpiece they do. In some cases it is because the mouthpiece came with the trumpet. If all you play is one type of music and one type of trumpet and you are getting the job done then this section may not be for you but might prove quite interesting.

For those players that have to play a variety of music and different trumpets like doing jazz , then some piccolo work then some flugelhorn solo’s, then playing in a symphony, then etc, etc…. Well if that is you then please read on.

The most important thing to remember is that every ones setup is a little different as far as the lips go. Some roll in, some out, some are dynamic, some more on the upper or lower lip, etc.. This equates the fact that not everyone can play on a smallest mouthpiece or biggest one either efficently.

Basically your lips memory location is not the same between all of these different mouthpieces and this could lead to poor performance. I like to call this lip confusion syndrome. However once you play on a pice long enough you will find all the pitches and not have those ocassional bumps that you will when first using a new mpc.

Why make it so hard? If you use the same Rim Contour and the same Rim Diameter then the only thing your lips need to remember is the one setting. From there we can change your sound with cup sizes and backbores which we will get into a little later. For now just keep this in mind after reading this whole section this should make a lot of sense to some players out there. As long as the rim sizes are close then there should not be to big of a learning curve between your deep and shallow mouthpieces.

Choosing a Rim Contour

The Contour of a rim really changes the way a mouthpiece can feel. These vary greatly across manufactures; some contours are more round, some more flat, and some taper differently on the outer part of the rim, and some taper differently on the inner part of the rim. There is no standard contour. For instance Schilke offers 5 rims, 1 being the roundest to 5 being the flattest and they all taper in different ways. Other manufactures may only offer 1 contour. But the Contours will fell different for manufacture to manufacture.

This really comes down to personal taste. There are many that will argue that playing to flatter rim will keep you locked into a position and reduces flexibility of moving your lips and that playing to round of a mouthpiece can cause difficulty in keeping the mouthpiece on and may cause the air to come out on the sides of the embouchure.

Great, so what does that equate to? Nothing, you are not going to play on one that is to flat or to round for you will know fairly quickly if it is not comfy. It is a feel and personal choice and a poor selection will be evident shortly if you make one.

Some players will go as far as finding a rim they like and having a custom mouthpiece made to tweak the feel they want. Be weary this can turn into a rather expensive process.

Choosing a Rim Diameter

Remeber, your teeth formation is different than mine, and your lips setup is different too... therefore there is no perfect diameter to fit anyone. Secondly, changing rim diameter will cause the greatest change in your embouchure. When a new diameter is picked the muscles in your set embouchure must adjust and relearn where the pitches, in time it will work. For instance, if you went with a bigger diameter you now have more of your lip in the mouthpiece or less if you choose a smaller diameter. This process can take some time to re-master.

Playing on a mouthpiece with to large of a diameter will give better articulation and provides more endurance, but flexibility will be lost. Some people will say this allows for a darker or warmer sound but we will discuss how this becomes irrelevant later.

Keeping this in mind, the opposite is true mouthpiece which has to small of a diameter for the player. The mouthpiece will not allow proper articulation and double/triple tonguing will possibly dissipate, endurance will be lowered but flexibility will be gained.

This is why most popular mouthpieces that are used among beginners are in the middle of the road of the diameter sizes and equates for not much is gained or lost

To figure this out is pretty easy, always try with a standard “c” cup from what every manufacture you choose. Most likely your manufacture will be based on your Rim contour choice. Keep in mind that for this to properly work you need to use the same Rim contour and cup size and be warmed up. If you have a choice of backbores then chosse the middle size for this test, backbores are chosen last.

Find the equivalent diameter of your current mouthpiece and start there. Play two or three octave scales and try some double tonguing and triple tonguing.

Listen closely all the notes should have an even sound and should be the same volume. A good player will have a good lower “G” to at least a high “C” to a high “G” depending on your abilities. If you can go higher then hold off for this part of the test. If the upper register is not even the try a smaller diameter. If it is the bottom part is not even then go to a larger diameter.

Using this method and keep going to a smaller or larger diameter until the sound becomes uneven in the different octaves or to the point where you cannot double and triple tounge.

Once you have found the one that threw the evenness or the articulation out of shape then you know that you are one or two sizes to small or large. Go back to the previous two and try them again. Check to make sure you do not have to push to make the sound even and that it flows without forcing it.

Did you find the one that works best? Great, you should now have a Rim contour and Rim diameter picked out.

Choosing a Cup

The Cup Depth will give you the ability to greatly change your sound. A small cup will make you sound more brilliant or when to small it will make you sound edgy, it will not make you play higher! If you cannot play in this registery already, a small cup will not allow you to play higher, but will enhance your current range as far as endurance is concerned. A larger cup will make you sound darker and give a more robust sound.

So why do all the jazz players have these super small rims? Easy, it produces a great brilliant sound in the upper register, which is why the smaller cups are used on piccolo trumpets and jazz players can sound like lasers.

Typically most concert and orchestral work is done on a round bowl. Choose the proper cup depth according to the sound you need.

A flugelhorn typically uses a “V” shaped bowl much like a French horn which will enhance that classic flugelhorn sound. Once again the depth should be based on again on the type of sound you want.

Finally upper registry work is typically done on a shallow bowl or “V” shaped cup. How shallow should you go? Once again this depends on the sound you want. If it is to shallow to play on then that should be a big hint that your lips are to big for it, you should not bottom out and that your sound is not thin in the mid and lower registers.

Remember the cup changes the tonal sound of the trumpet and that is its primary function.

Choosing a Backbore

Here is where most players make a mistake. Your Backbore should be chosen for your trumpet. There are many sizes of backbores and many ways of how they will taper dependent on the manufacture.

A bigger backbore will open your sound volume up and make your trumpet fell more free blowing and ultimately give the ability for your sound to be more open. A tighter (smaller) backbores will add resistance and will require less air but you sound will be more centered.

Remember keep it simple. Trumpets vary in there bore size; use the backbores of the mouthpiece to change the resistance of the airflow to something you are comfortable with.

Most amatures will think they can get a huge loud sound by adding a large backbore to a small rim and play upper registry in jazz loudly. Remember a larger backbore may make you sound louder/more open but more air is required. Most people that have tried this have found that they cannot support this to hold a note at that volume level due to a lack of air support. They basically drown in the horn. This is why most upper registry work is done with a tighter backbores. It requires less air and normally gets loud enough for almost all players.

hope this helps out and will give you an idea of how it all fits together...

-marc