Challenge to John Mohan part 2

Mike Edwards · Regular Member Joined: 14 Oct 2002 Posts: 12

John Mohan is quoted below:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

****I was fired from the position of "Moderator" for the CG forum quite a while ago. I think nearly a year now. Or maybe less. Something like that...

I wasn't supposed to voice my opinion about the lack of validity of certain methods (okay, a certain method... okay, of SuperChops) while being a moderator on the Herald. I did anyway. So I was fired. Life goes on.

John****

I have another challenge for John Mohan. In the above quote Mr Mohan clearly states and claims that he wasn't suppose to voice his opinion about the lack of validity of certain methods then he further narrows it down and specifically defines it as being SuperChops.

Now being that Mr Mohan has already established in his statement that there was lack of validity to SuperChops by his own determination then it could no longer just be considered as an opinion because an opinion does not establish validity. I now challenge Mr Mohan to reveal to us exactly what things are not valid about SuperChops. Being that Mr Mohan has indicated lack of validity to the method as a whole then many aspects certainly must have been evaluated from which John Mohan "needs" to reveal to us.

I want John Mohan to provide well documented undeniable, unrefutable and scientifically proven evidences that he has established to back up his assertion about the lack of validity to SuperChops.
Im only interested in the research conducted and performed by Mr Mohan.
No quotes from other players or teachers, no reworking the question, no backpeddling, no loosely based assumptions, no replies by posters saying they think they know what John is saying, No me too post from sympathizers. No poorly supported claims of Emperical knowledge, or Empirical evidence which was tabulated without an extensive and thorough outside testing source. No use of this thread for Mr Mohan to do reasearch or seek information about the subject that he already purported as lacking validity.
I expect the moderators to help keep this thread pure to my requests and to follow the criteria model that I have set up and kept free from opinion givers. I ONLY WANT THE FACTS!
The same stringent rules should apply as well to any posters who would wish to refute the accuracy of Mr Mohans findings.

I question Mr Mohans ability to provide significant evidences to back his statement for but not limiting to the following reasons.
See the thread named NATURAL AND UNNATURAL EMBOUCHURES where John Mohan proclaims that he doesn't have to "back up" what he says as well as making unprovoked dispareging remarks towards a methodology. Where only after being called down by the moderator then he acknowledges that he could of worded his statements differently.
In the thread COMPRESSION in fundamentals a poster in great detail points out why John Mohan's posting has to be seriously questioned due to the lack of sound reasoning.
Therefore I must also conclude that just not everything that John Mohan says can be relied upon as based on sound reasoning and I wish to extend to him a chance to "back up" his claims about "lack of validity"

Sincerely
Mike Edwards

[ This Message was edited by: Mike Edwards on 2003-02-09 05:31 ]

redface · Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:16 am Post subject:

Again this is not a debate. If you want state the validity of Superchops and prove scientifically how it is valid then go ahead, I'm ready to pull your ideas apart with a fine toothcomb. A debate needs an initial premise to be stated in the first instance - are you gonna state why superchops is valid?????

_bugleboy · Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:41 am Post subject:

Mike,

Mr. Mohan hasn't made a statement here in the DF that he hasn't been held accountable for. If he said that SC wasn't valid here in the DF, and didn't back it up with evidence and reasoned statements, then he wouldn't be allowed to continue in this forum on that topic, which is somewhat the way things turned out earlier.

If you want to assert that SC is a valid method and debate all comers (including but not restricted to John Mohan) as to its validity, then you need to offer the evidence and reasoning that could then be challenged by all comers. But since JM hasn't tried to maintain his position on the DF without the requisite evidence and reasoning, his remarks on any of the other forums aren't subject to the same rules that they are on the DF. Backing up what you say is unique to the Debating Forum.

Mike Edwards · Regular Member Joined: 14 Oct 2002 Posts: 12

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 7:30 am Post subject:

It seems to me that in order for anybody to deliver the kind of proof you are looking for, they would have to spend a great deal of time researching the SuperChops method, and probably try it out for themselves. Why would anybody who is earning a living playing the trumpet go through all that just to disprove a method?

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2003-02-16 19:38 ]

X3L · Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 9:42 am Post subject:

Blowing out someone else's candle never makes yours burn brighter.
Anyone care to debate that???

John MacGregor
Waukesha, WI

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

_bugleboy · Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:04 am Post subject:

To all,

It is possible that the essence of this thread (that SC is a valid method) will continue in a different format. I welcome (can't speak for the other moderators) comments about the pertinence or validity of any thread here in the DF, or about anything, from the TH membership. Be assured that your posts have been read and considered. Please don't be offended if they are removed for the purpose of keeping a thread uncluttered and on topic.

NE,

It seems to me that in order for anybody to deliver the kind of proof you are looking for, they would have to spend a great deal of time researching the SuperChops method, and probably try it out for themselves. Why would anybody who is earning a living playing the trumpet go through all that just to disprove a method ...

It would surely take a person dedicated to truth to go through all that. On the other hand, if you're not prepared to back up what you say, whatever it takes, maybe it's better to say nothing.

... that a very large majority of trumpet players would never consider using anyway?

Care to offer any substantiation for that figure of " a very large majority?" A majority is 51%. A large majority might be 65 - 75%. A very large majority would surely be more than 80%. So, what would be the basis for saying that over 80% of trumpet players wouldn't even consider using SC?

Dave,

There is no debating the common sense in this post.

I have proposed that at the very least, plus 80% may be an extreme figure in NE's post. That is, it is not common knowledge that more than 80% of all trumpet players would never even consider using SC. Common sense is something that should be common, or self evident, to most people. That plus 80% figure may be true, (and that would certainly require a lot of time consuming research) but it is not self evident or intuitively clear to me that it is accurate. So, I fail to see where that part of NE's post is "common sense."

And yet you stated that "this post," meaning the post in its entirety, is common sense. And that there is " no debating" this fact.

This should bring to a close the argument (it was never a debate) on the subject.

There was not a debate because JM didn't respond to ME's challenge. For the very same reason there was no argument. A debate or an argument requires that there be two opposing sides.

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2003-02-16 15:07 ]

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:26 pm Post subject:

Bugleboy --

My perceptions on the matter may be somewhat skewed, since I think it would be fair to say that orchestral professionals (and those who aspire to that description) are less likely to use this method than the trumpet community at large -- and those are the individuals with whom I interact. To date, the only time anybody I have met "in real life" has mentioned SuperChops has been to ridicule it. So 100% of the people I personally know (admittedly a tiny fraction of the trumpet players in the world) wouldn't use it. I suppose "consider" might be a hair strong; perhaps "seriously consider" might be a better phrase. Apparently, I should have gone with my gut and resisted the urge to slide in a jab at the SC method! However, the point I was trying to make was not only that someone wishing to "disprove" SC would require an almost superhuman dedication, but that the standard of proof Mike demands is virtually unmeetable. Furthermore, I suspect that most of us not in the Callet camp would regard a concerted effort to discredit SC analogous to a concerted effort to prove that water is wet. Perhaps I'm missing out on the elusive Golden Key, but I won't lose any sleep over it.

_bugleboy · Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:37 pm Post subject:

OK. For the time being I'll edit out the reference to SC. All of this stuff will have to go eventually, but for the time being maybe some of these exchanges will make the nature of the DF more understandable.

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Why would anybody care so much about what John Mohan thinks ?

I never heard of the guy outside of these forums.

It looks like all he does is play Broadway shows in Germany.

And look at the way he signs his posts. He feels the need to constantly tell everybody about EVERY gig he's EVER done.

Chris LaBarbera
1st Trumpet in the new Disney hit "I've got a splinter in my Butt"
Formerly 1st Principal auxilliary 2nd trumpet for the smash hit "Please don't squeeze that Boil"
27year student of "who cares".............

Batmann · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Dec 2002 Posts: 112

Mr. Hollywood,

My point exactly!! One up side is he could probably get a gig at a Disney theme park. Hey, he already knows all the tunes!

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Hey Batman,

He was doing that (listing all his gigs) on TPIN. He would do it every time he posted.

So one day I posted and "called" him on it. I noticed that he stopped for a while, but I've been off TPIN for quite some time so I wouldn't know if he's still doing it.

Chris

Batmann · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Dec 2002 Posts: 112

Well.........

I can only speculate as to the reason he's in Germany now instead of on the West Coast IN THE U.S.!!! (fade in the music to "It's a Small World Afterall")

bulos · Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:31 am Post subject:

I will use the words of a far greater authority then myself to make my point as relates to this controversy about schools. systems, and the like, James Thompson, see it here:
http://www.paulayickvintagebrass.com/Misc/James%20Thompson/
_________________
Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

John Mohan · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:25 pm Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:31 pm Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:40 pm Post subject:

Obviously with Internet forums, there no way to really know much about someone's ability as a player or teacher based on reading what that person wrote about himself. The only reason I include my credits under my name is so people will know that what I write is based on a fair amount of professional experience. The only ego-thing involved is that of the fragile egos out there who constantly moan and groan about such credits placed at the end of a post. I for one would ALWAYS want to be informed about who's done what and accomplished what in their playing. Or for that matter, in any field of endevour I was interested in.

For anyone that would like to know more about me, my playing and my teaching from an independent source, I would suggest that you read the post in the Pedagogy forum entitled "Lesson With John Mohan". Here's a link:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=11330&forum=5&4

Well, this is the first time I've ever "waded in" to the debate forum. I'm fairly certain it will be my last!

I've got to leave for work now. We play Mannheim Germany this week, we just had two weeks off, and I've got to drive from Berlin to Mannheim (600 kilometers) to attend a 3pm sound check that starts in less than 6 hours. (Thank goodness for the Autobahn!)

You all have a great summer and practice your trumpets lots and lots. I will be!

Sincerely,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student