Why?

AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

Why is it that when you are giving people advice that helps them, they often do not take the time to follow it outside of you giving them lessons? I have taught some people who are very good players and they always bitch to me with stuff like "I wanna play higher blah blah I wanna use less pressure" etc. So I give them various things to do and we work on some excercises and by the end of the lesson they play/feel better. But then people don't practice the stuff and so they go right back to their old problems all over again. I think it's because I am teaching peers and they feel they don't have to listen to me, which is understandable, but then people don't have to ask me for advice if they're never going to listen in the first place. Am I doing something wrong? Or is this just something you have to get used to as a teacher?

trickg · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:45 am Post subject:

I think that there are two things to consider:

1. You aren't really an authority figure to your peers, therefore, they might wonder why they should listen to you.
2. It takes time and effort to make a real change for the positive behind the horn. A lot of people just don't have the discipline or don't want to give the effort it takes to make that change, even if you are giving them solid advice.

Take for instance this kid that came to me several times. He's 14, I'm 32 and have been playing longer than he's been alive, so there isn't a peer to peer issue there. But he would come to me, expecting ME to make HIM better. I tried stressing to him the basics about sound production, air support, articulation, flexibilies, etc. Nothing fancy, just basic fundamental work that he REALLY needed if he was going to even THINK about improving. I stressed to him the importance of repititious practice. But, he'd come back and I could tell that he wasn't putting forth the effort in the practice room. I guess that he must have thought that all he had to do was take the lesson, that he didn't have to do the prescribed work to make an improvement.

He said he wanted to get better. I gave him the tools. He didn't use them. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Same thing with this kid.

He stopped coming to me after one Sunday morning when he set this music in front of me and said he needed to be able to play it by Wednesday. It was an entire lead part of a marching show for his HS band. It was a killer part too. I would have been hard pressed to learn it and be able to play it in 3 days and I actually have some chops and reading ability. He hadn't really even started it and expected me to be able to teach the entire thing to him by rote. I came down on him maybe a little too hard but I told him that I couldn't learn his part for him, and that although I could teach him to play better, I couldn't perform miracles. I told him that all I could do for him was to give him some exercises and show him some things, but that he was going to have to put in some solid effort or nothing I told him or showed him would matter. Oh, did I mention that I was giving him lessons for FREE!?

Sorry I got off track, but like I said, the desire to want to improve has to come from within and no amount of good advice or recommended exercises is going to help someone that is all talk and no action.

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[ This Message was edited by: trickg on 2003-07-23 12:53 ]

AverageJoe · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:47 am Post subject:

You can only control yourself. If you give them good information, that is all you can do.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him talk...."
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"Every time I hear you play, you sound better than the next..."

EBjazz · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:56 am Post subject:

When a kid comes in to a lesson and says he's been practicing what I gave him and sounds better and knows it,
I look at him and say "So I'm not crazy after all". Doesn't happen every day, I'll tell you that.

Eb
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fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:03 am Post subject:

Yea, it's funny how I used to think I could fool my trumpet professor and tell him.. "Oh yea.. I've been practicing!", when in fact I hadn't been practicing...then when I became a teacher.. I heard the same thing from my students.. but I could tell they hadn't been practicing.. I guess I never really did fool my teacher... LOL
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Lex Grantham · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:53 am Post subject:

I think some people get what I call the "halo effect" with their playing. To me it is that something happens that is better than it really has the right to be at the moment.

Have you ever picked up a new mouthpiece and/or new (different) instrument than what you have been playing for a long time and it seemed so very good at the time?

Then...

the next day (or several days later) you feel that things have possibly slipped and not any better than ever before?

This "halo effect" may be the thing in a teacher-student lesson encounter and then NOT occur at home. Maybe the student has forgotten the small, minute enhancement that he/she was told to do and cannot recreate it later.

Just a thought...

Sincerely,

Lex Grantham

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:58 pm Post subject:

There is increasingly a consumer mentality among students of all disciplines, particularly the younger generation. (Which I define as everybody younger than me, as I have never had anything but EXEMPLARY work habits.

) Students tend to regard teachers like they regard carwashes -- you go to the carwash, pay your money, you leave with a clean car, and all you have to do is sit there. This isn't confined to private music instruction, the same is true in high schools and universities. The teacher's job is to teach, the student's job is to show up, and any failure reflects on the teacher, not the student. I vividly remember a classmate in my third year of university indignantly demanding of our theory prof, "What do you expect us to do, teach ourselves?" when said professor had the temerity to ask a question on the test related to a reading he had assigned but not explicitly discussed in class.

In the case of teaching the trumpet, I think matters are made more difficult but the rather uncomplicated nature of the instrument. Regardless of your teaching approach -- and particularly if you don't espouse a lot of physical manipulation -- there simply isn't a lot to say. It's not like math class, where each day you learn some new stuff. All you really need to know to play the trumpet could fit on a couple of pages. All you need to DO on the other hand...

Having just returned from a spectacularly unsuccessful round of golf (don't even ASK!), I think I can relate to the problem a little. Sometimes I swing the club and the ball goes the appropriate distance in a straight line -- which convinces me I CAN hit a golf ball. Most of the time, the ball goes an inappropriate distance (i.e. sand wedge farther than driver) in a lovely arc towards the nearest water hazard, sand trap, fescue, tree, or cornfield -- which convinces me that I should throw my *&$#@%! clubs in a pond. Why does this happen... I CAN do it... I did the same exact thing this time as I did when it went dead straight and landed on the green... I know what I need to do... it must be the clubs. Unfortunately, because I've seen my trumpet students do it a million times, I know EXACTLY what my real problem is: I need to go to the driving range and hit a dump truck full of balls.

The thing is, I really don't care quite enough about golf. I enjoy the pleasant walk, I enjoy the company, I enjoy the occasional good shots. But I don't care enough to make myself put my nose to the grindstone and get halfway decent at it -- although I wouldn't mind being good at it, RIGHT NOW. Same goes for the vast majority of trumpet students, at all levels. Most of them are just taking lessons because they think it's a substitute for work, and most of them really aren't that interested in improving if it requires them to exert themselves.

I try to motivate my students as much as possible, preferably by demonstrating to them that by practicing intelligently they WILL get better. But if they don't respond, either they don't like you or they don't like working. The proper response depends entirely on how badly you need the money.

DaveH · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861

The above post from NE is very true regarding the "car wash" - I'll have to remember that one...

There are many people, young and old alike, who want the benefits that come from hard work, but are unwilling to actually do the work that it takes to get the results. I see it in school regularly - kids who want all As on their report cards, but have no idea how much work and determination it may take to get the result. And when it doesn't happen, they don't understand why...

marktrumpet · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:12 pm Post subject:

I know what your talking about. I remember I had a person actually older than me, asking me for advice on how to improvise, I told them where to start, but they never followed through.

I think some people like to really just talk about what they want to do, there in their own little dream world, they have no intention of actually doing the thing they are talking about. I think other people don't want what their talking about enough to actually do something or follow through, (in this case, decreased pressure, higher notes, etc..) My $0.2

walter · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:49 am Post subject:

I just love bitching about students too. I've taught a widely diverse number of things, from college religion & philosophy to private trumpet lessons, with lots in between. My wife burnt out of teaching recently, not so much because of the students (some of whom were good, some who were woefully unprepared to be in college, and some who fell into the mindsets described above), but because of unsupportive administrators.

I teach a handful of trumpet students and sometimes find myself wondering what the hell I'm going to do with a student who obviously hasn't practiced. The mere idea of wasting the next few minutes of my life with someone who doesn't seem to care can be detestable to me; so I've come up with a few strategies that make me feel better. Some of these are:

Tell the student(s) unemotionally, but directly and honestly, that this is a real drag for me. I have at least some level of expertise that took me a long time to develop, I'm there ready to help pass on what I know, and there's absolutely nothing that I can do if and when a student isn't playing the same game (teaching/learning) as me.
Respect the students for where they are at that moment. They are fellow human beings (age, mental disposition, and other factors don't dehumanize them), and the game planned for the moment can't be played by only one person.
Tell them that I can modify the game to help them to play the game better or that we can quit for the day. I expect to get paid for my time either way.
If they decide to go on playing, then I take a fraction of the planned lesson and work on perfecting the student(s)' approach to it. In this way, it's just like practicing at home on a bad day or on something that I have trouble with: Isolate a problem, repeat it until it becomes easier, and slow it down if it still isn't getting better. The time then becomes productive.
If the student(s) don't want to go on with the planned lesson, then there may be other problems which I may or may not be able to deal with. I simply ask what's going on, listen, try not to say too much, ask more questions (as seems appropriate), and (the hardest) don't try to solve their problems unless the solution is ridiculously simple. I may or may not empathize with examples from my own life.
If the situation is hopeless, then I realize that I'm not the Almighty, All-knowing answer to the problems of the Universe. Alhumdulilah ... I offer the moment up to Allah and go my merry way. What would Jesus do? What would Scooby Doo?

Dooby dooby doo ...

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2003-07-24 08:54 ]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2003-07-24 08:57 ]

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Am I doing something wrong? Or is this just something you have to get used to as a teacher?
=======================================================

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AccentOnTrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Nov 2002 Posts: 878

Thanks a lot for the advice guys. I guess I was sort of pinning the problem on myself because I was giving the advice to people and they weren't listening. I think far too often teachers are blamed for students not practicing. I try to tell people I can help them but in the end they have to really do it. I guess a lot of peoples talk is really just talk, maybe they don't love the trumpet like they claim if they aren't even sacrificing their egos for it. Or perhaps they just have to find out for themselves what they'll really have to do. It just hurts me to see good players injuring themselves all the time from their practice habits, and these are talented people who can play and have potential to do something. I try to tell them to practice certain excercises and rest as much as they play, but it seems some people just keep going in the same circle and get stuck in a rut. It really is odd to me because when I was going through a slight embouchure tweaking a while back my teacher told me to not scream for a few weeks and only work on Arbans and less demanding pieces. And let me tell you, me going that long without playing high was tough, because I loved to play high notes, and still do. But I did it. It's probably a discipline issue some people have, and they fail to see the gratification they will receive if they work through their playing. It's just annoying that people will still give me that "Oh my God I love the trumpet so much" b.s. if they won't even take the time to work through some things that would completely fix their playing.

I read everyone's stories and advice and I now feel better. I guess it's not my fault, however I think I should start being more blunt with people, and tell them that if they wasting their own time, they'll never be where they want.

[ This Message was edited by: AccentOnTrumpet on 2003-07-24 12:13 ]

DaveH · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Nov 2001 Posts: 3861

If you can really answer this question in this post, you will also probably be able to answer this one also - "Why don't children listen to their parents as they should?"

birdland98 · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:52 am Post subject:

When I'm teaching, I constantly have to remember that most students (under the college level at least) are not REALLY taking lessons for the sole purpose of bettering themselves. I always try to ask why they're here, and usually I get responses like "My mom is making me", "My band director is making me", or "I want to play high notes." What really surprised me is the sheer number of students who could only think of one goal they really wanted to accomplish: double tounging. These students MOST OF ALL just want to have fun while playing music and maybe get a little better along the way, and I feel it is more my job to give them the means to accomplish that. Every once in a while, a student comes along who really is there to learn (you can tell in the first lesson), and these are the ones that I really concentrate on the fundamentals with. For everybody else, it is enough to slowly go over fundamentals, always in the context of more "fun" material.

I have to keep telling myself that it is really not my job to turn every middle or high schooler who comes to me into the next Bud Herseth, Maurice Andre, or Clifford Brown. Only the students can do that, and only the ones who are willing to focus and work towards such a lofty goal will really benefit from high level (to younger students: boring) instruction. It is enough for me to see most of my students actually WANT to play music, now and in the future.

-Alex

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:05 pm Post subject:

One other issue which I think comes into play is fear of failure. I find that most of the times I've failed to put an honest effort into something, it's because I'm afraid that I'll fail. If I've done it half-assed, I can make excuses, but never having really tried and failed, I think deep down I'm terrified by that possibility. As long as they don't try, they can blame the teacher or blame their laziness. Perhaps helping students deal with that fear might help motivate some of them.

Mind you, some of them are just plain lazy...

trumpetchops · Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644

I see it as watering the lawn.
The grass closest to the sprinkler really gets green.
That doesn't mean that the part way back doesn't get water.
They are learning something weather you think so or not. Not as much as the person that tape records the lesson and plays it back every day but more then nothing.

Mean Liberal · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:31 pm Post subject:

I've never even thought about recording a trumpet lesson! I should bring in a tape recorder next lesson and really impress my teacher.
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trjeam · Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:45 pm Post subject:

I would like to quote mr. marsalis on my reply

"first you have to love what you do with them and then you have to love them"
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davidquinlan · Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:40 am Post subject:

I call this the "PlayStation" syndrome... on a PlayStation (or any other games console) game, if you are stuck at a particular point in a game, you can find a cheat sheet somewhere on the internet.. giving you unlimited ammunition, invincible powers etc etc etc .... which will enable you to get to the next level in the game....easy....

There ain't know cheat sheet available for Trumpet Playing (or at least I haven't found it yet!!!)

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Clarion Wind · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Jun 2003 Posts: 141

Awe, who cares. Be honest, be helpful, be nice about it. If they don't listen, well, just take the gigs they can't get cause they suck then. Unless they are paying you for lessons, or you are actually giving them "lessons" for free in a formal way, just have fun playing with your friends and if they don't take your suggestions seriously, see above mentioned suggestion.