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brassjunkie Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 Posts: 399 Location: Aotearoa
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:37 am Post subject: Flugel Frustration |
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So my flugelhorn, a Besson Sovereign, which I have owned now for about 3 years, has a first valve which sticks on the upstroke. I have had it into the repair shop twice. First time a little gentle lapping got it working smoothly again for about 6 months. Then it started to stick again. Back to the same shop where a different technician used some sort of diamond coated brush (I think it was diamond or something very hard) to finely score the valve casing (apparently this is what they do in formula one engine cylinders to reduce friction and get the oil to coat better). Anyway, after this the valves were amazing. Now 3-4 months on and the same problem has returned.
After two visits to the repair shop I am not keen to spend more money and I am feeling a little frustrated. Looking at how the lead pipe opens straight onto the first valve, I am wondering if there is a gradual build up of some residue on the casing or valve that is causing this problem.
Has anyone else experienced a similar problem? Any suggestions for a fix? (in the past I have been unable to fix the issue with thorough cleaning etc).
Thanks,
Derek _________________ Cannonball 789RL
KMI Golden Flair
Conn Director Coprion Bell
Besson Sovereign Flugel
www.jazzinspired.blogspot.com |
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connicalman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 1668 Location: West Medford, MA
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Hetmans Classic. Like magic.
For little $, it could resolve the issue.
Where parts are worn (or asymetrically honed) it fills the gap, clings better, and keeps me from becoming frustrated.
Good luck. _________________ kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A... |
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jazztrpt76 Regular Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 59
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:55 am Post subject: |
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Take it to Charlie Melk. |
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trumpaholic Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 1501 Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi there: I had the same problem with a Besson Soverign, lapping will only partially rectify the issue. ONLY a total valve rebuild will in my opinion really fix it. Hetman 3 is a very good oil for valve issues like this, and I did use it on mine as well. Besson had some really bad valves in the 90's and have since gone to a German source for them. I use six inch Q-tips to get in and remove anything which might be on the edge of the first port in flugels and yes, sometimes there is a build up of stuff which will give problems. I would recommend a total valve job if a thorough cleaning will not clear up the issue if you really like the horn. |
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teacherchops Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 240 Location: Charlottetown, PEI, Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:59 am Post subject: |
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I had a problem like this with my Yamaha "Shew" flugel. I purchased the horn new and the valves were horrible. Yamaha finally sent it to Ron Partch in Toronto and Ron had to hone the valves. The tolerance was just too tight. The valves work great now. Ron also suggested Hetman oil. |
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trumpetmike Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2003 Posts: 11315 Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Whereabouts are you based?
Someone here might be able to recommend a decent repairer in your locality |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:26 am Post subject: |
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I would also suspect what ever you're blowing into the first valve, and how often you clean the horn. The trade off for having nice tight valves is you have to keep the horn clean. I clean my trumpet leadpipe every 3-4 days, and the entire horn every couple of weeks.
Also, was the horn new to you, or was it already broken in to someone else's finger stroke? The lapping should have solved that issue, but it could take a lot of playing, cleaning and re-oiling to adjust to your stroke. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:14 am Post subject: |
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It is necessary to keep the valves, especially the 1st valve, scrupulously clean. I give mine just a plain water rinse in the shower once a week and a good cleaning once a month. I also use BiNak oil which is an outstanding product quite unlike other valve lubricants.
BiNak oil contains solvents that remove gunk as well as lubricants that keep the valve moving (the solvents are why you can't use BiNak until you've completely converted the horn by cleaning and oiling with BiNak, cleaning and oiling with BiNak, cleaning and oiling with BiNak, about three times).
That said, some horns have issues. I had a Yamaha flugel in the '80s that had a chronic first valve problem that never did get fully resolved, even with help from Osmun Brass. The solution was to sell it and buy an different brand.
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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trumpetup Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 151 Location: Godley, Texas
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Maybe you don't have confidence in the repair shop that has worked on your flugel twice. But I would talk to them about your concerns and see what they recommend. There are a few cranky repairmen out there, but most are fair, honest, and would like to work on a quality Besson Sovereign.
Good Luck,
Bobby _________________ Ps 100:1 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord |
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Bill Blackwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Posts: 1020 Location: Southern CA
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:38 am Post subject: Time to move on? |
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Although I would agree your valve issues probably have as much to do with you as with your flugelhorn (angle of your stroke, chemistry, etc.), at this point I would simply get rid of it and find another horn.
I have had similar issues in the past and based on what you have experienced thus far, maybe it's time to move on. Another brand with a different valve block might suit you (that is, your overall playing characteristics) better. _________________ Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine
Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper
The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra |
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benlewis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 1019 Location: Memphis, TN
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Derek,
Is it possible that your grip is putting stress on the first valve slide? With tight valves, even a little pressure is sufficient to distort the casing where the tubes enter. Just a thought...
HTH
Ben |
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Giz Regular Member
Joined: 27 Aug 2002 Posts: 43 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: Re: Flugel Frustration |
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brassjunkie wrote: | So my flugelhorn, a Besson Sovereign, which I have owned now for about 3 years, has a first valve which sticks on the upstroke.
Thanks, Derek |
Had a similar problem with my flugel and a new-used trumpet. I tried
5 Starr oil, and that took care of the problem. It does produce a build-up, due to the paraffin, but a little more frequent cleaning is a small price to pay to salvage 2 horns.
Giz |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:31 am Post subject: |
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With all that the piston and bore has been through I would not try anything mechanical to fix it short of a nice refit so lets rule that out.
Cross hatching is not used on Formula-1 engines or any race engine they run those honed smooth to reduce friction and improve sealing oil control is not an issue on a race car. Cross hatching is used on the bore of any daily driver to better control oil and improve longterm ring sealing as in 300,000+ miles etc........The fine scratches help to hold the oil on the wall of the cylinder soit does not all run off and leave the bore dry! Prior to this most engines had oil consumption issues by 50,000 miles and cylinder bores that where egg shaped etc.......
So history lesson over on cross hatching. Ok for the bore never good on a piston!
Ok the best single application oil that can be bought for this problem is probably Ali-Syn it will make Hetmans seem like kids stuff by comparison.
The other idea is the Lithium White Grease method. So far I have gotten not less then 15 emails saying this single method has saved trumpets that would other wise have been sent to the closet to await a valve rebuild. You can use WHite Lithium grease in the tub or the spray can. You only need to put on a lightest coating because any excess will just get scraped off. You then oil the valve with your normal valve oil and work it until you get the feel you want then it will either work normal or not.
Hope this helps. If easy is the goal Alisyn is the esiest way to go. It is about the thickest oil specifically for instruments like trumpets with perinet valves money can by. It lasts for ever. You can oil a valve put in the closet and 2 years later take it out and the valve oil is still on the valve! _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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brassjunkie Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 Posts: 399 Location: Aotearoa
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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thanks for all the advice and suggestions, some very helpful insights there. It was a second hand horn, so maybe it was broken into a different finger action. The last tech who worked on it said it could be my finger stroke putting to much sideways motion on to the valve, I guess the flugel is different to the trumpet because your fingers have to come over the bell tube, so more scope for less finger curl and more sideways force? I take the point about the frequent cleaning too, makes sense when the lead pipe opens onto the first valve. I will try some different oils, as suggested. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
KMI Golden Flair
Conn Director Coprion Bell
Besson Sovereign Flugel
www.jazzinspired.blogspot.com |
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nordlandstrompet Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Posts: 266 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I had a 947 Sovereign flugel some time ago,
and it had the same problems as described by the OP.
I used to "unsharp" the razor sharp edges on top and bottom
of the piston (carefully!) with a very fine sanding paper (1200)
appr. once a year.
The sharp edges worked like an oil ring on a car piston and
scraped away the oil and stuck themselves......
The arrows on the picture shows the point which was sanded.
(The picture is made for illustration purposes only).
_________________ Nordlands
http://www.brassnor.no
CarolBrass Scandinavia
---------------------------
Taylor
Chicago Custom X-VR
Chicago Gen III
CarolBrass
CTR-5200V-(D)-L
CCT-9392-GLS(D)
CCR-9990-RSM-SLB
CPT-3000-GLS
CPT-1000 mini |
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brassjunkie Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 Posts: 399 Location: Aotearoa
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Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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nordlandstrompet wrote: | I had a 947 Sovereign flugel some time ago,
and it had the same problems as described by the OP.
I used to "unsharp" the razor sharp edges on top and bottom
of the piston (carefully!) with a very fine sanding paper (1200)
appr. once a year.
The sharp edges worked like an oil ring on a car piston and
scraped away the oil and stuck themselves......
The arrows on the picture shows the point which was sanded.
(The picture is made for illustration purposes only).
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hey thanks, nordlands, I will look into that fix too.
Update: I took the horn apart tonight and discovered a lot of white gunge in the 1st valve cap and in the valve ports. The inside of the 1st valve casing is noticeably dirtier that the others. Gave it a good clean and oil and the valves are all working great again. Phew, hope it lasts. _________________ Cannonball 789RL
KMI Golden Flair
Conn Director Coprion Bell
Besson Sovereign Flugel
www.jazzinspired.blogspot.com |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Try Alisyn I think it is going to work great on that valve. I would not use it on all of them because it is a tad thicker then most like but with the lapping and cross hating having been done already in a shop I can gurantee that the clearance on that piston is greater then the other's now so it should not be much of a problem with that valve. Alisyn is made from PAO which is what all of your High End "synthetic " automotive oils used to be made from and the first widely used synthetic in Jet Aviation because Mobil makes a ton of it. Unlike Ester's wish have higher heat tolerances and even better film strength PAO is not hygroscopic so it is not going to absorb moisture from your spit as easily as most other oils do! Alisyn has 0% evaperation it does nto evaperate at all. SO you will be able to go much longer between oiling if you chose to. Personaly I would wipe the valve down with paper towel at least once a week and brush the case out too. While those crass hatches hold oil better they also hold dirt,bacteria and everything else better too. _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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brassjunkie Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2009 Posts: 399 Location: Aotearoa
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2669 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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It would also depend on when this flugel was built. Older sovereigns had either great or terrible valves. However, if cleaning mqkes a huge differnce, it isn't the valves, it's dirt that's the problem: an oil like BiNaK can help a lot here.
If you use a synthetic oil, avoid those which can dry up and leave corrosive residues, such as the one suggested above. It's a sure fire way to cause issues with a horn!
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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