How to choose Bach Strad based on serial number?

[cascade]

After a 30 year hiatus, I'm looking to play trumpet again and am looking for a good instrument to be used in a community band setting and weekend wedding/coffee house jazz type gigs. Due to funds, I can only afford a single horn that will need to do it all.

I came across an older gentleman that is a friend of the family that has offered to sell me one of the many Strads he has acquired over the years. The Strads he's willing to sell are as follows:

1. Model 37, silver plate, 112xxx
2. Model 37, silver plate, 196xxx
3. Model 37, silver plate, 449xxx
4. Model 37, lacquer, 636xxx
5. Model 37, silver plate, 644xxx

I'm not sure why he had purchased so many of the same model. Perhaps this a warning flag? Anyways, I spent a few hours play testing all these instruments but just do not have the skill level to determine which horn is best. They all play similar with nice fast valves, tone is similar, all intonate well, and all are in excellent condition with only minor wear.

Can anyone offer as to which Strad may be the best out of the bunch based on serial number? Should the serial number impact the price on these four? He has them priced so that the later serial numbers are a couple of hundred dollars higher.

Or am I totally off base and should I be looking at Yamaha 6335's, B & S Challengers or something else like a lightweight 8310Z?

Thank you kindly for any advice or comments!

[VetPsychWars]

Just play the damn things, you goof.

Seriously, what? Who cares! Stick your piece in it and if it plays, buy it. If not... don't.

And.. if you can't tell, like I can't, don't waste your money.

Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

[tptptp]

If the older ones are in great, unrepaired condition with no silver wear and tight valve compression, and are cheaper, I'd pick one of those. I'm like you, in that I might have trouble picking the "best" player. If you have a more practiced friend, let him try them out. He may feel a blow difference which you might only notice later, when you are on your game. Oh, and I'd pick a good Strad over all those others.
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Craig Mitchell

[jengstrom]

Cascade,

For better or worse, the Bach 37 has been the standard to which all others are compared for many years. Although a Yammie Zeno is a good horn and quite popular, and although the Bach 37 isn't my cup of tea (I play a 43 lightweight most of the time), a good Bach 37 is a great horn that will last you a lifetime. If these horns truly play identically (within your ability to tell the difference), choose the one that is cheaper and/or likely to retain more of its value than the others. That may eliminate the ones with the higher serial number because some people think they are of lower quality than the earlier ones.

However...

I would (1) bet that there are subtle differences in the horns and (2) would strive to find those differences and choose the one that most suits you, no matter what the serial number is.

Besides the obvious regarding dents and other damage, things to look for include:
1. Intonation - look closely at the low D and Db, as well as 4th space D, Eb, and E. I saw a post one time where someone said to play scales in the key of B because that key was notorious for being out of tune. Don't base your decision on that scale alone, but it could help you decide. You might also find that certain valve combinations are always a bit out, no matter which notes.
2. How do the 1st and 3rd valve slides work? When you pull them out a half inch and let go, do they pop back to position, or close to it?
3. Can you see evidence of corrosion anywhere inside the tubing? This is hard to see, but you might be able to get some clues looking into the leadpipe, especially at the mouthpiece end. Does the mouthpiece fit securely in the receiver or does it feel like it's "hitting bottom"? (This happened to me once.)
4. How does the blow differ between the horns as you approach high C? My one complaint about Bach 37's has always been that they feel tight to me in the high register. But, one man's irritation can be another man's nirvana. Play up there and choose the one you like better. I gaurantee they're different. And if you can play above high C, be aware of the intonation. Horns can get real squirrelly up there.
5. You won't be able to check much about the valve alignment without some neat tools, but you can look in the second valve slide ports and see how that valve lines up with the ports when the valve is down. With good light, you might be able to see into the 1st valve slide too.

This list is by no means comprehensive, but might help you decide. You won't go wrong with a good 37. Good luck.

-John

[Crazy Finn]

If only there was a mystical way to determine if on that day and that hour those workers did a good job of assembly and detail work... hmmm.... and if when it was assembled the horn blew well and freely and in tune and resonated well.

Perhaps if you take the serial number, divide by the radius of the earth's orbit, subtract the number of days left in that particular lunar cycle, and up the birthdays of the shop foreman during the construction of each horn, divide that number by the speed of the earth's rotation, multiply by the speed of the moon around the earth, and then correlate that to the closest number in the Fibonacci sequence...

Wait...

[RogersBrass]

The best position for you to take is to assume they are all the same.

What Bachs are the best ?...this is one of the most opinionated topics...and most certainly regarding serial numbers.

It's like picking out a puppy...take home the one that crawls out of the litter box and barks at you.
_________________
www.rogersbrass.com
custom leadpipes

[spitvalve]

Obviously your friend really likes Bachs.
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Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces

[shofarguy]

Some practical things to look for:

Closely inspect the silver plating for little black spots, blisters, flaking or even soft spots in the tubing. Pay attention to the mouthpipe that goes from the mouthpiece receiver to the tuning slide, and to the area around the spit valve. these are common areas for what is called red rot.

Pull the tuning slide and try to see down the mouthpipe. Get some light to shine up through the pipe by reflecting up from the bell. Look for dark, shadowy blotches. Ask if the horns have been scrubbed out recently.

If any of these things are evident, these parts may need to be replaced at some point.

Nest, take hold of the valve stems and see if you can feel any side-to-side play in the pistons. Work them fore and aft, as well as side to side. If you sense definite movement, the valve is worn and will likely need rebuilding.

If you can see any stress in the bell or tubing where dents or creases have been removed, it may indicate that the horn no longer plays as well as it should. Even well done repairs which are cosmetically invisible may not have restored the original playability of that trumpet.

In regards to serial numbers, there have always been good and not so good horns. If you cannot tell which plays best yet, these visual indicators may help eliminate potential disappointments when you arrive at the skill level that will tell you that you got a good horn.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[EBjazz]

I would go with the lower numbers if the horns are in good shape.
I know some don't buy into the whole "true Bach" thing, but the horns that come after 646013 that I have played have all been good.
The horns that came just prior to 646013 are hit and miss IMO.
So the top 3 on your list are from a good era.

Eb
_________________
Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com

[Brad361]

You are likely to get almost as many opinions on this as there are Strads. As others said, play them, pick the one that feels / sounds best to you. Or get someone who is a bit more skilled, and both of you play them, then decide. And remember that 90% of what's coming out of the bell has more to do with you than the horn.

Brad361

[Capt.Kirk]

I like Brian's advice best. I would add that compression test and standard leak test is a must. After that if it Plays good get it. I would no more pick a horn by it's serial number then I would pick a woman just with number's!

I would guess that he bought them because the market is flooded with H.S. Band Students horns that are not used any more. Most H.S. kids and their Directors worship at the altar of Bach Strad 180S37 so with a glut of them on the market they often do not hold their value and can be had at a good price. Since demand is like wise high for that model you know it will be easy to flip the ones you do not want to keep. Most will play average and if you sample enough of them you always find one that is extraordinary in how it plays. I am going to guess he is selling the average ones and keeping the one that really sings for himself! Obviously no one needs 5 180S37's all at the same time!

On that same note their are some really good clones out their and if you can afford one I think new is always better then used. Sonare's are getting great reviews from everyone that play test's one. They are cheaper then a new Bach and have some added value in their design. They are basicly a Bach 37 clone.

Getzen has the Proteus which is a superb playing trumpet. I would say it is a tad more diffused and a little darker sounding then a Bach 37 but it is based off a Bach 37 bell. It has Getzens Forever warranty on the valves which are nickel not monel. Very solid core!! Usually well priced as well because Getzen sells it or markets it as a Intermediate horn but it is for all real world purposes a pro-horn!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[Scorpion]

excuse me, but i think you are all forgetting the most important test here. Listen carefully. Go to your buddy's house. Get black-out drunk off of pineapple schnapps and go on a rampage. Whichever one is not destroyed when you come out of your stupor is the chosen one.
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-GET OVER HERE!
-1964 Olds Super Balanced Depleted Uranium single flue Harpoon (w/custom coprion hand guard i got from a 1925 Conn Erradicator.) Akright converted handle w/calfskin grip (143xx)

[Dale Proctor]

All other things being equal, buy the oldest one. The perceived worth will always be higher than the newer ones. Or, buy the one that all the digits add up to 7...
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[Capt.Kirk]

What is asking for them? Get the one in the best shape with regard to valve wear and such. Put a 7 or 43 pipe on it and get the valves aligned and then give her a sexy,exotic name and treat her with tlc and let her be your muse!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[rockford]

Most of the time used Bach trumpets simply need to be cleaned out or have fresh valve pads (proper dimension!) installed to play the way they should. I buy horns all the time that people have grown to dislike and usually there's a ton of crap in them, especially that spot between the third valve casing and the tuning slide. Seems like everyone forgets to clean there.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

[plp]

At this point, if you are just coming back to playing, it is very difficult to decide, based on limited skills. As many here have suggested, check the physical condition and make your decision based on that.

While there are dogs, for the most part Strads are good trumpets and the 37 is the Chevy of the trumpet world, good in all situations.


Welcome back, and get a private teacher to help you get back in the groove.
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Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth

[Jerry]

You can't tell by serial number.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

I would say that the variance among horns made at a particular time (especially after decades of use) is not less than the variance in quality over time. That is, even if it were possible to say that instruments with 112xxx SNs are, as a group, better than instruments with 644xxx SNs, it does not necessarily follow that a particular instrument from the earlier group is better than a particular instrument from the later group. (Example: Asians are, on average, shorter than caucasians; it does not follow that I am taller than Yao Ming.) Presumably, if your friend has bought many instruments over the years he has tried to eliminate the dogs himself, and will have tended to choose instruments that play a particular way, so there's probably not as much variation within his collection as there might be in a random sample.

I think the suggestions about evaluating mechanical soundness and checking for red rot are good.
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Richard Sandals
NBO

[jhatpro]

My own experience would suggest stick with the Strad. I have two and prefer them to any of the several dozen other brands I've tried over the years. My 37, built in 1975, is excellent and so is my 72R, built in 2005. Not sure if they are representative of their eras or are the exception but they both play well and sound great.

As for picking the best of a litter, I'd play them all in a blind test with someone who knows what a trumpet should sound like as judge. I'd value sound and playability over costmetics.

An interesting and possibly valuable variation of the play test would be to reverse the process as well. In other words, after you play for a friend or two and have them write down their choice, do the same for them and pick the best one you hear. Compare the choices and, if they match, you have a winner. If they don't -- well, maybe you can at least eliminate some from consideration.

Good luck!
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.� Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[rbn]

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