Overlooked Mount Vernon Strad?

livertwist · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:10 am Post subject:

Okay, I'm no expert on the dates Bach was building horns in Mount Vernon (please correct me if I'm wrong..) but I believe this is a Mt Vernon Strad. Of course, due to the seller's atrocious spelling in the subject line, it looks like it might have thus far been missed on eBay. How on earth could you mess up Stradivarius? It's spelled right on the horn?!! Anyway, good luck if this is what you're looking for...

Oliver

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2555579908&category=41400&rd=1

DavesTrumpet · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:01 am Post subject:

Yeah, I noticed this horn too. I betcha he's left a "1" out of the serial number. 15535 would date to 1956. But on the other hand, 115535 would date to 1975. His description does say, "Elkhart" so that basically rules out the possibility of it being a Mt. Vernon (or at least the bell being a Mt. Vernon - there are rare exceptions, like a later replaced bell, etc. on an older valve set).

The case looks like a 70's case too, and from the angle, it appears it has a trigger (very common for a horn of 1970's vintage).

Dave M

_gmdean · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:18 am Post subject:

It's not Mt Vernon and if you look at what he says is on the bell it says:

Stradivarius
model 37 G
Vincent Bach
Elkhart, Ind USA

I would wonder if it is one of the ones made during the takeover/move period. The numbering might be like this due to it being a custom order and maybe because of the bell. One of my babies is a standard 37 from 1966 (sn39xxx) and looks very similar as does the case. Mine is a real "player" and cost a lot more than that. I'd check out by asking the seller some sensable questions and for some more photos and you might find you had a bargan on your chops at that price.

Mark

bgwbold · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:10 am Post subject:

I am no expert on Bach, but several things about this listing do not add up.

1) It appears to be an Elkhart bell on a 15XXX Mt Vernon body, so if this is an original bell, the serial number could not be 15XXX
2) If it was ordered in the 60s, neither the 15XXX or 115XXX serial number would work since 15XXX is from the 50s and 115XXX would be from the 70s.
3) When was the G bell introduced? Was it available in the 60s? I don't know.

Could be that there is an easy explanation for all this, but these are the questions that would jump out at me if I were thinking about bidding on it. The seller is not the original owner, I note. Also, it should be noted that the seller just has 1 feedback comment. Of course, at one time any seller on eBay has only one feedback comment, but I would take this into consideration if I were thinking of bidding.

Mike

livertwist · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:15 am Post subject:

I'm not going to bid... have my eye on another horn, actually. I just thought it might be a MV because of the serial number. I figure it is actually 115xxx and the original owner had a bad memory. As others pointed out, the case is a 70s model, and that would make the horn from the same era, and everything else would make much more sense.

Oliver

DavesTrumpet · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:36 pm Post subject:

On 2003-09-04 12:10, bgwbold wrote:
"1) It appears to be an Elkhart bell on a 15XXX Mt Vernon body, so if this is an original bell, the serial number could not be 15XXX"

Agreed, but to my eyes it's not a Mt. V body. I placed the image in Photoshop and did several enhancements to try to see a nickel silver upper section of the valve casing and couldn't. 15XXX would probably have had the more rounded 50's style finger hook on the leadpipe too. Also the mpc receiver would have been longer. Maybe the best thing would be to confirm the serial number with the seller.

"2) If it was ordered in the 60s, neither the 15XXX or 115XXX serial number would work since 15XXX is from the 50s and 115XXX would be from the 70s."

Memories fade, plus it's the word of the previous owner/seller. 70's become 60's relatively easily that way. Maybe the original owner special ordered the bell in the (late) 1960's.

"3) When was the G bell introduced? Was it available in the 60s? I don't know."

From the very start of the Strad line in the 1920's. I have a 1928 Bach with a 6G bell. The gold brass option is a very old one.

I agree, too many things don't add up.

Dave M

bgwbold · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:23 pm Post subject:

you wrote:
Memories fade, plus it's the word of the previous owner/seller. 70's become 60's relatively easily that way. Maybe the original owner special ordered the bell in the (late) 1960's.

"3) When was the G bell introduced? Was it available in the 60s? I don't know."

From the very start of the Strad line in the 1920's. I have a 1928 Bach with a 6G bell. The gold brass option is a very old one.

=========================

Who says you can't learn something new every day? I never knew that the G bell was pretty much always offered.

Thanks, Dave.

Mike

_Happy Canuck · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:07 pm Post subject:

I asked the poster about the SN vs bell engraving, here is waht he responded:

"Yes it does have a first Valve trigger.
Serial Number is 15535 but the bell says Elkhart Ind. The Guitar was Purchased By the original owner in 1965 I believe. I remember him telling me something about how when he Ordered it they were in New York but by the time they finished it they had moved to Indiana. Apparently took allot longer to get then he had expected. Maybe that explains the discrepancy.
He did custom order it and had it built for him, something about him wanting to specify specific metal content for the bell. Maybe the Trumpet was built in N.Y and then the bell finished up in Indiana. Wish I could remember the old guys name. A number of people have pointed this out. Looks like it might be a rarer item than I thought."

Oops, GUITAR????

Mid 50's valve block with a mid 60's bell, certainly a long time waiting for the order?!

Looks nice but I'm certainly passing!

- not like I'd really want a Strad anyway ; )
_________________
Bill

Olds Mendez, Recording, Super, Special & Ambassador trumpets/GR Butcher 65.6M
Olds Opera, Ambassador Shepherds Crook cornets/Sparx 4B
Olds L-12 Flug/GR Butcher 65.6FL
Schilke MII trumpet/GR Butcher 65.6M

_Happy Canuck · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:11 pm Post subject:

Maybe we are all wrong... and he is right.. both with the spelling and the horn.

It might truely be a Stratevarious ... a Strad ...made from various parts????
_________________
Bill

Olds Mendez, Recording, Super, Special & Ambassador trumpets/GR Butcher 65.6M
Olds Opera, Ambassador Shepherds Crook cornets/Sparx 4B
Olds L-12 Flug/GR Butcher 65.6FL
Schilke MII trumpet/GR Butcher 65.6M

ARB · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:11 pm Post subject:

What's the deal with this Strad, why is it bidding so high?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2554735399&category=41400
_________________
Allen - 'Chops-in-Hotlanta'

00 Schilke S22
77 LA Benge 5X
63 Burbank Benge C

"It's what we think we know that keeps us from knowing"

DavesTrumpet · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:56 pm Post subject:

I'm growing more and more skeptical! 9 years for a custom horn? Nah, I don't believe it! I bet the bell was ruined and someone slapped an Elkhart bell on it. Or someone just wanted to try a G bell on it. Which probably means the horn's been stripped, buffed and relacquered sometime along it's history.

And I still feel certain the case is a late 1970's case (this case matches my 1979 case). An earlier 70's case would have the darker silky inner cloth flap (like two I have from 1973) and a mid 60's, an even darker silky cloth. Plus a 60's vintage case would probably be differently, internally. My 1965 Bach case has blocks that hold the horn at the valve cluster.

Oh, about the valve cluster. The early lightweight models used an all-brass valve cluster as opposed to the two tone nickel-silver and brass cluster. So if this horn has an all brass casing, it may well have started life as a lightweight horn. I think any serious collector would be best advised to contact Selmer for a copy of the shop card on this horn before purchasing it as a "rare" collectable!

Dave M

fuzzyjon79 · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:59 pm Post subject:

I would guess that item is probably on a lot of people's Favorites list.... since the price is so low and there are still over 4 days to go on the auction.... It's probably being watched like a hawk....
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"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!"

wardsd · Heavyweight Member Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 504

I am far from an expert on Bachs, but I believe there should be Mt. Vernon stamped on the valve cluster. I have asked the owner to re-verify the serial number and got the same answer as Happy Canuck did. Then I told him it didn't make sense - he would be waiting 7-8 years for this custom horn. He didn't have an answer for that. Then I asked him what was engraved on the valve cluster. His reply was NOTHING. I asked again, being sure I was clear. Again, he said NOTHING except a 1,2,and 3. My opinion is it is another make of horn with a Strad bell. Just my opinion...

Steve

DavesTrumpet · Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:43 pm Post subject: