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Indofunk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 566 Location: NYC
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:31 am Post subject: What the *#$&@ is this?? Besson "Enharmonic" f |
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http://cgi.ebay.com/EXTREMELY-RARE-Bb-FLUGELHORN-BESSON-ENHARMONIC-MUSEUM-/300530584520?pt=Brass_Instruments&hash=item45f904cbc8
From the word "compensating" I assumed it would be akin to a F/C compensating horn, but on that flugel I don't see a valve to switch keys. After a little Googling, I found this description of Besson compensating euphoniums (euphonia?):
Quote: | Enharmonic System, Brief Description;
Besson came up with the idea of adapting the system used on the full double French Horns, that of offering two sets of slides for different parts of the range, and my very rare Besson ‘Enharmonic’ Euphonium is the latest addition to the collection.
The 3 tuning slides for the middle and upper register notes are at the back of the instrument, and a longer set (for lower notes) is then placed on the front.
Now here’s the complicated part, the mouth-pipe leads directly into the 3rd.valve instead of the 1st. If the 3rd. valve is not used, the wind-way goes through into the 1st. & 2nd. valves in the normal way, and back through the 3rd. to the bell, having used the short set of slides.
If the 3rd. is operated, the wind-way goes through the 1st. & 2nd. valves by a different route, including a tuning slide, and is directed through separate longer loops of tubing (having used the front set).
The whole range of valve instruments (except the Soprano Cornet) was available in enharmonic form, however, the obvious weight problems when you get to the tubas must have been enormous, which is probably why only 3 valve models were made of the monster double B flat tubas. The range was eventually discontinued.
source: http://www.euphonium.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=115 |
So by my calculations, you can't ever play a low D, C#, or any Ab using "standard" fingerings, you'd have to use the other, lower side of the horn. BTW, what key is that "other" side in? _________________ http://satish.bandcamp.com
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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There is not an "other side as" in a compensating french horn, the extra longer valve slides were switched to when the third valve was used in order to correct the sharpness of C#, D and Eb, the fingering was as normal.
Regards, Stuart. |
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Indofunk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 566 Location: NYC
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes the easiest solution is the hardest to find, it must have been an expensive nightmare to build.
Regards, Stuart. |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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stumac wrote: | Sometimes the easiest solution is the hardest to find, it must have been an expensive nightmare to build.
Regards, Stuart. |
Trumpets aren't, if fact, the whole brass world.
Compensating euphoniums are expensive and highly desired instruments. Among the premium brands, a compensating Wilson runs $3000 more than a non-compensating model.
I am not a low brass player, but I assume that the amount of tubing that has to be extended to be the equivalent of us kicking the third slide out a 1/2" is probably 2". Gotta have a long finger to do that. Likewise, lipping down is going to be proportionally greater a distortion of pitch. That might not be acceptable in a pro quality brass ensemble.
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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hup_d_dup Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 290 Location: Tewksbury, NJ
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Prof. Scott Whitener, in his book A Complete Guide to Brass, 3rd edition (Schirmer-Cengage Learning 2007) has a full explanation of the compensating system as used by Besson and Boosey & Hawkes. Interestingly, he was not aware that the system was used on a flugelhorn until an e-mail query about this instrument which I sent to my trumpet teacher was forwarded to him a couple of weeks ago. The compensating system was more commonly used for lower brass. Apparently the flugelhorn now on eBay is exceedingly rare, and who knows, perhaps unique!
Here is a quote from Prof. Whitener's message:
"I always wondered if Boosey & Hawkes-Besson had tried the compensating system on anything other than tenor horns, baritones, euphoniums, and tubas. This answers the question. I guess it didn't catch on because of added weight and cost. It would be interesting to know how much it improves the intonation. If you are interested in the compensating system, I cover it in the euphonium chapter of my book. Although it's intended primarily to accurately correct the intonation when the instrument gets long-- 2-3, 1-3, and 1-2-3, it also enables the third valve to be the correct length (rather than longer as usual) to avoid the sharp 1-2 fingering (if you are interested in the acoustics behind why 1-2 is sharp, Vincent Bach discusses this in "The Art of Trumpet Playing.") Arban and possibly some others developed their own 4 valve system to fix the problem and Courtois made in the 19th century Arban model cornets with this system (this is not their current Arban model). This, too, did not catch on and players have always preferred to use the 1st and third slide instead." |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6210
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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What a maze of tubing! |
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trumpetmike Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2003 Posts: 11315 Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Not quite unique, but definitely very, VERY, rare.
Have seen a couple of examples of high-brass compensating instruments (couple of cornets and now this) - as yet I haven't had the chance to actually play them, but am always intrigued. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2358 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6210
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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Following the patent number 216595 (prominently visible on the last soprano cornet photo), here is the actual patent. |
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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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At the time of manufacture of the french Besson compensating Flugal Boosey and son of England held the Blaikley patent in which an extra loop was added to the first and second loops when the third valve was depressed.
To get around the patent the Besson system switched between two loops of different lengths on the first and second valves. The principle is the same, the execution is different.
Regards, Stuart. |
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RogersBrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2009 Posts: 514 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: |
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There is nothing odd or strange about this compensating system. It is interesting how complicated the descriptions and explanations become.
The manufacturing of this type of system fell out of favor in the higher brasses..therefore seeing examples of the French Besson, Besson Prototype, and Boosey & Co. instruments does indeed look strange...but it is the same basic sytem in use today with the 3 and 4 valve compensator euphoniums and tubas. The 3 valve system is played the same as a standard 3 valve instrument.
The Besson patent was a 100 year international patent in effect at the time of Boosey & Hawkes prior to WWII...and did not expire until the early 1970s. After the Besson patent expired..the compensator euphoniums were available from other manufacturers. I am under the assumption the Besson patent pre-dates the Blaikley patent with the United States Patent Office. _________________ www.rogersbrass.com
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