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Tale of the Tape- 3 MF pieces!


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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:31 am    Post subject: Tale of the Tape- 3 MF pieces! Reply with quote

Guys and Gals,

with the help of leadtrpt1955 and Jim New at Kanstul Music I have scans, images, and diagrams of the following 3 Maynard Ferguson Mouthpieces.

-Giardinelli MF1 (#1 rim)
-Holton MF6
- FBL Maynard Ferguson TM


In advance, I apologize for the length and size of this post. The Size is mainly due to the images and not the text.

I will post this in two (or more) separate entries for this reason.

Feel free to chime in with observations and comments. Have a great Memorial Day!

To start with, a few JPEGs of the scan PDFs. Color quality was degraded somewhat in the file conversion, sorry!

The shallowest of the 3 is the Giardinelli MF1

Next, the rims-

Amazing how the high points of each rim are almost identical considering these were probably pre-CNC era manufactured.

Bite closeup- the Giardinelli has the sharpest bite radius of the 3. ALL, however, have extremely soft undercuts (High Alpha Angles).
Next, cups and bores. The Holton MF6 and the FBL TM are the deep Vee-shaped cups.

That's all for this post. More coming!
mc
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Last edited by Mark Curry on Mon May 30, 2011 9:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:48 am    Post subject: 3 MF images Reply with quote

Here's some images and more!


Relative Backbore insertion length



Next post will hopefully have some numbers for you...
Thanks for hangin!

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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: MF Comparison chart Reply with quote

Having some problems getting an Excel table to fit in here side by side...

GIARDINELLI MF1 #1 rim
construction 2 piece screw-rim
material leaded brass
weight in onces (grams) 3.4 (96)
rim outer diameter in inches 1.055"
overall length in inches 3.426"
throat (bore) inches (mm) #26 .147" (3.73mm)
throat cylinder length (estimated) >3/16" (4.75mm)
backbore profile shape symphonic-open blow
backbore exit diameter in inches (mm) .329" (8.37mm)
insertion length in bach receiver** 1.0375" (26.35mm) small gap

HOLTON MF6
construction 1-piece
material leaded brass
weight in onces (grams) 3.3 (94)
rim outer diameter in inches 1.06"
overall length in inches 3.437"
throat (bore) inches (mm) #19 .166" (4.21mm)
throat cylinder length (estimated) >1/4" (6.4mm)
backbore profile shape symphonic-open blow
backbore exit diameter in inches (mm) .335" (8.51mm)
insertion length in bach receiver** .8865" (22.52) biggest gap


FBL MAYNARD FERGUSON TM
construction 1-piece 1 piece
material leaded brass leaded brass
weight in onces (grams) 3.4 (96)
rim outer diameter in inches 1.058"
overall length in inches 3.25"
throat (bore) inches (mm) #19, .166" (4.21mm)
throat cylinder length (estimated) >1/4" (6.4mm)
backbore profile shape very open blow*
backbore exit diameter in inches (mm) .347" (8.81mm)
insertion length in bach receiver** .937" (23.8mm) big gap

* very open blow of the FBL due to insertion length of symphonic backbore reamer to nearly the same mark as the Giardinelli and Holton samples (both "Bach"-length), but the shorter overall length of the FBL-TM (nearly .2" shorter) reveals a much more open blow. Play-testing confirms this.

**I would have included relative shank diameters of the 3 pieces. However, light shank damage (and repairs) on them necessited taking insertion length numbers rather than actual shank diameters. However, estimated numbers are Giardinelli (.381", smallest, almost no gap), Holton (.390", huge gap), and FBL (.388", also a very big gap)

If someone out there in trumpetland has an FBL TD (trumpet deep)or TS (trumpet shallow), I'd love to get a scan of it. PM me if you do.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend!

mc
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Last edited by Mark Curry on Mon May 30, 2011 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all this, Mark, fascinating stuff! Interesting none of these quite match my memory of the very shallow V that I seem to recollect... - Don
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J_Mase
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is really neat, and I'm grateful you went through the process to get all this information. I know it's pretty much impossible (due to the design) to establish an inner diameter measurement for any of these models, but is there a common point in the system where it would make sense to call such a number?

Also, any idea how these compare to the Monette MF3? I know the MF2 is completely different, and I've never so much as heard anybody speak of a model before that.
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Jeff Mason
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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff-

about .610" is a pretty common Inner Diameter measurement of the MF pieces. Due to the rounded nature of the bites, that measurement is about .045" from the top of the mouthpiece (crown of the rim). I will take a look through my files and see if I have one of the later MF pieces...

Don-

The Giardinelli MF1 is the one you're you're thinking of- I had one in the late '70's. This one looks just like it! I had a devil of a time learning to play it.

mc
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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the 3 PLUS the Monette MFII he used quite successfully later in his career. It's somewhere in the 5C diameter range. Note the rim contour is basically the same as the others, but the MFII had a little more room on the inner diameter and quite a bit more undercut. Note the sharp radius at the beginning of the second cup on the MFII. Outside of the sharper bite and undercut, the main cup and second are quite similar to the Giardinelli MF1.

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LeeC
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The charts are interesting but the pictures seem to indicate a different "outer bite" than what the graphs show.

Those resemble my old Jet Tone Personal model from back in the 1980's. The cup worked fine but the outer bite was sharp as hell. Never played a mouthpiece with that nasty of an outer curved edge before or since.

Which leads me to believe that if the sharp outer bite was a preference of Maynard's? Then he really was a freak.

According to the graphs there is virtually no "bite" to the inside rim edge. So I could use it.
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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeeC-

The outer radii on all three are pretty close.

I would say that they are in the "medium" range in terms of sharpness.

Not nearly as brutal as the Jet-Tones you're talking about. I've seen and played them- Not for everybody.

mc
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nick8801
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to try a mouthpiece like these....Are there any production pieces out there today that won't cost me an arm and a leg, that are similar? I know Kanstul does the monette MF-3 which is kinda like these, but that's about all I can find!
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To satisfy my curiosity would like to see scans or pics of Maynard's flugelhorn mouthpiece(s).

I have to believe from my ears that he was using some kind of double cup or convex cone shape on the flugel m/piece. Or maybe even a simple medium sized cornet mouthpiece. I've found that helpful in sectional and jazz work.
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Patches
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is very interesting. Thank you for posting. MF's pieces are very fascinating to me and I always enjoy good solid info like this.

Quote:
I would love to try a mouthpiece like these


Kanstul has scans of the Groovin High 2 and Greg Black NY4 which at some point someone had customization work performed. These are believed to be copies of the Giardinelli MF1. You can either have Kanstul make one up for you or Greg Black make one up. It'll be about the same price no matter which you go to. They also have scans of the Schilke MF1 and Holton MF3 which appear similar to the overall deeper concept the the FBL-M and Holton MF6 have.

This is a scan comparison of the NY4 to the MF3 Holton.



You could always check with Kanstul to see whether they have scanned the FBL series.


Regards,
Matt
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J_Mase
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patches wrote:
This is very interesting. Thank you for posting. MF's pieces are very fascinating to me and I always enjoy good solid info like this.

Quote:
I would love to try a mouthpiece like these


Kanstul has scans of the Groovin High 2 and Greg Black NY4 which at some point someone had customization work performed. These are believed to be copies of the Giardinelli MF1. You can either have Kanstul make one up for you or Greg Black make one up. It'll be about the same price no matter which you go to. They also have scans of the Schilke MF1 and Holton MF3 which appear similar to the overall deeper concept the the FBL-M and Holton MF6 have.

This is a scan comparison of the NY4 to the MF3 Holton.



You could always check with Kanstul to see whether they have scanned the FBL series.


Regards,
Matt


Also, Warburton makes an MF top, which is a copy of the Giardinelli MF1.
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oceandrive
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,
Just now I have the Holton MF3 , FBL tm and the MF1 for checking.
The rims are similar. I dont get along with this rim shape.
Also they are pretty small in inner diameter.
I like the mf1 for finding the sweet spot and maintaining it, but thats it for that piece.
The FBL has a "very" nice sound, much better than the Holton for my taste.
The mf1 I own, the two other go back to the owner who wants to sell them.
If anyone wants to have them, let me know.
Chris
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deleted_user_fdb91a0
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How much for the MF1??
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leadtpt1955
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, I'm glad to have been helpful with this project.

If we compare Maynard's sound throughout his career, the FBL period is my favourite. Just listen to the "Alive and Well" album and the video clips on Youtube from the late 1960's after he had moved to Europe - especially the version of "Maria" with the Gustav Brom orchestra. His sound was so full and fat and SWEET in the upper register.

Once we got into the Jet-tone era, his sound got much brighter and lost some of the fullness of tone that the deep V cup provided.

This is just a personal sound preference. Maynard sounded incredible no matter what he played!

Looking forward to more discussion here
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md-jones
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Kanstul MF3 in the LT blank.
I like how comfortable it is, but I sound absolutely terrible on it.
If anyone wants to trade or buy it, let me know.
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Bill W
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the FBL TM and I love how dark it plays in the low register. Id love to have it cut for sleeves so I could adjust the Gap. It's a little stuffy on my Shires. I have used it as a piccolo mouthpiece for really high stuff quite effectively.
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=iMEHat1PXV0 Playing Maynard's "Hey There"
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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leadtpt1955 wrote:
Mark, I'm glad to have been helpful with this project.

If we compare Maynard's sound throughout his career, the FBL period is my favourite. Just listen to the "Alive and Well" album and the video clips on Youtube from the late 1960's after he had moved to Europe - especially the version of "Maria" with the Gustav Brom orchestra. His sound was so full and fat and SWEET in the upper register.

Once we got into the Jet-tone era, his sound got much brighter and lost some of the fullness of tone that the deep V cup provided.

This is just a personal sound preference. Maynard sounded incredible no matter what he played!

Looking forward to more discussion here


I also loved that period of Mayard's sound. One of my first Maynard LPs was "Maynard Ferguson 1969". It had "Whisper Not", "Dancing Nightly", and a few other classics on it. I believe the FBL pieces were among the last he used on the Connstellation (medium-bore) before switching over to the large-bore Holton and Jet-Tones.

(BTW, I can ship them back to you on Monday!)

I did *see* an Jet-Tone MF flugel piece once- same type of rim as above, cup was a deep convex-vee shape, huge throat.

I'm still on the lookout for the other FBL Maynard mouthpieces- I know there is a TD, but is there a shallower model than the TM?
(I've asked Jim New at Kanstul and he's not sure after looking at his scan library.)

Any help would be appreciated. It would certainly be nice to add to my scan library.

mc
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Bill W
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thick the shallow FBL piece was just marked with a "T".
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Bill Wasserman
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=iMEHat1PXV0 Playing Maynard's "Hey There"
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