duties of principal trumpet, assistant principal

trumpetgeek · Regular Member Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Posts: 15

what are the responsibilities/duties of the pricipal trumpet and the other trumpets? is there a such thing as an associate principal trumpet? thanks

tcutrpt · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:17 pm Post subject:

Well, here's the short answer for you:

Principal: responsible for assigning parts and is "the man" on the major works that the orchestra plays on each concert
Second: As far as I know, the second player plays second all the time. He/she has to blend very well and match the style and intonation of the principal player.
Third/Associate Principal: Plays 3rd on all the pieces requiring 3 trumpets. He/she plays first on the concertos and smaller pieces that the orchestra does. The third player also has to be ready to jump in and play first in emergency situations.
Fourth/Utility: The fourth player has to be able to do it all. He/she may be called to play any part in the orchestra.

This is a very general idea for you. I am pretty sure everything is accurate.
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Matt Cyr
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tpetplyr · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:17 am Post subject:

I know that no matter what chair you sit, to sit in a major professional orchestra, you have to be GOOD. However, why does the 3rd or 4th player get bumped to first for little works and such instead of the 2nd player? wouldnt it make sense to just move everyone up a chair? And why doesnt the principal play them anyway?

Stuart

blasticore · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:08 am Post subject:

"...why does the 3rd or 4th player get bumped to first for little works and such instead of the 2nd player?"

I imagine that would be for a similar reason that guys in some bands playing 3rd, 4th or 5th would take lead book when the lead player gets tired. It just makes thr work easier for everyone. It seems like the sensible thing to do in those situations.
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tcutrpt · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:17 am Post subject:

To try and answer your question...

The demands on a Second chair player are consider by some to be greater than that of the principal. The second player has to listen for the smallest of details in order to match the principal player. To become very good at this is a completely different beast than playing principal trumpet. That's why orchestras just don't bump everyone up a chair if the principal doesn't want to play first.

Let's say the maestro has programmed a violin concerto, an overture, and Mahler's 7th Symphony. Even though most principal players in professional orchestras could probably play first on all of the pieces and get by, they don't. The principal's job is to play first on the large works and often times, he needs to rest for the first half of concerts in order to make his performance on the larger work truly spectacular. Everyone does this that I'm aware of. The principal doesn't need to be the hero who plays everything. With 10+ concerts a week for the top tier groups, playing first on everything would sooner than later take its toll. With those high demands, a very practical and realistic attitude is necessary for the principal player. He needn't take on the whole load because the associate is more than capable of playing first. That's why they hired him! This is why the principal player doesn't play first on everything.

The reason you see principals like Bud Herseth and the big times guys stick around in the symphony for decades is because they have a very good sense of what they can handle. They always play within their physical limitations (which are all but nonexistent when compared to us mortals) and ALWAYS have a bit extra in their tank when the music needs it. That is what makes them so great (plus loads of practice!).

I hope this helps answer your question.
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Atomlinson · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:12 am Post subject:

What about the Assistant Principal?

I believe there are occasions when this person will sit along side the principal player and hardly play at all except perhaps at a certain place in the music to give the principal player a chance to take a short rest before an important solo, or to play along with the principal player for more volume/power? Is this correct? I've sure I've seen this happen with a UK Orchestra. (I think it might have been with the BBC Philharmonic and I think they were performing Strauss "Sinfonia Domestica" - I'll try and check my videos.)

Andrew Tomlinson

[ This Message was edited by: Atomlinson on 2003-04-26 14:17 ]

samlg · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:17 pm Post subject:

i was recently playing in a rehersal for the Bournemouth symphony orchestra, we were playing berlioz's symphony fantastique. the principal was playing 1st trumpet and the 2nd trumpet part was played by assist. principal. the cornet parts were played by the 3rd trumpet (playing cornet 1) and me (4th trumpet) was playing 2nd cornet. i was surprised by this as the cornet parts are leagues above the trumpet parts. this was the big peice that week as well! i wonder why he was playing hat part?

sam

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 6:03 am Post subject:

Every orchestra has a different division of labor. It depends a great deal on the strengths of the individual players, the circumstances under which they were hired, and the demands of the repertoire in question. And the big one: How much money the orchestra has to hire extras. Usually, the second trumpet player is hired exclusively to be a second trumpet player. His or her job is to follow the leader. The strengths required are good following skills and a very good low register, both soft and very, very loud. As a consequence, it can be difficult for second trumpeters to "change gears" and lead the section in the upper register, so normally they are left on the second part. However, I have played in orchestras where the second player sometimes plays principal.

The third player is more likely to play principal for a couple of reasons. First of all, a lot of repertoire only has two trumpets so he or she might otherwise not be playing. Second, many composers tend to score the trumpet section like a horn section: with first and third as "high" parts and second and fourth as "low" parts. Therefore, the third player is less likely to be living in the basement all of the time. Also, in pieces scored for two trumpets and two cornets, very often the principal player will be most comfortable with his or her regular second trumpet player playing second of whatever instrument the principal is playing, so that leaves first of the other instrument for the third player. Finally, whereas most second trumpets are auditioned and hired to be good second players, third trumpets are generally selected on the basis of being capable of stepping up and playing principal.

Some orchestras use the fourth trumpet as a true "jack of all trades"; in others, he is definitely "low man on the totem pole." It's not unusual for the fourth (or third, in three-person sections) to be a former principal who has stepped down to finish his career. How the fourth trumpet gets used really depends on the demands of the season and his or her strengths.

One other thing that needs to be kept in mind is that orchestras are very busy. As a consequence, sometimes decisions that seem strange within a concert are based on other repertoire being performed around the same time. A principal with a very demanding show might take it easy in the preceding week, or sometimes orchestras might have two different programs on the go at once. And sometimes principals might just say, "Hey, I've played this piece enough times. Why don't you play it?" In the long run, that can improve morale and build ensemble. Sometimes the third player might be more comfortable on cornet, and so cover most of those parts -- the Cleveland Orchestra actually listed the third player as principal cornet.

Hope all of this clears things up a little.

Atomlinson · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:55 am Post subject:

Good post Nonsense Eliminator.

Have you any information about Principal players using an assistant, something I mentioned above? And who would this be? (in the section)

Andrew Tomlinson

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:43 pm Post subject:

Atom --

(I know your name is Andrew, I just think everybody should call you "Atom". What can I say -- I just got back from a gig and have been enjoying some frosty libations...)

Most of the time, when principals have the luxury of using an assistant, one of two things is going on. Either there are more people under contract (either for the gig or for the season) than are necessary for that piece, and the principal decides to take one along for the ride; or else the orchestra is made of money and hires somebody. In the first situation, it's most likely either the third or fourth player, depending on who most closely matches the principal's sound and can carry the section in tuttis. In the second, the orchestra might use a regular player as an assistant (because that player would presumably match the principal better). In either case, you're absolutely right about what that player's job is: To give the principal a rest before big solos, and to spell him or her off in the tuttis where necessary. In sections where an assistant isn't available, the players will instead figure out places where the principal can lay out (in unisons) or have another player cover the part for a few measures.

There really aren't any hard and fast rules about who does what. Some players may have language in their contracts about overscale if they have to play first, and that will certainly affect things (whoever gets the least overscale will probably get the part), but most sections are simply concerned with putting out the best product with the least amount of effort.

The irony is that the players who are most likely to be able to get through anything you put in front of them are also most likely to be in orchestras with the resources to hire an assistant... I truly pity horn players in small orchestras who regularly have to play Tchaikovsky without an assistant.

[ This Message was edited by: Nonsense Eliminator on 2003-04-27 20:45 ]

redface · Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 7:51 am Post subject:

MrClean · Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 10:51 pm Post subject:

Goodbye.

Atomlinson · Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 11:17 am Post subject:

Great Post. But who is going to be playing the off-stage post-horn part and on what instrument? In the UK someone used a flugelhorn.

In the CSO recordings I believe Herseth used to play it and play in the orchestra as well. I don't know what they did in live concerts.

I like the story in a recent ITG Journal interview with John Ware (NYPO). After he joined, he said to Vacchiano, you've got to go off-stage to play a solo. Vacchiano said, "how do you know that?". Ware said "I used to do in my last orchestra". Vacchiano said " You can do it then". He certainly walked into that one!

Andrew Tomlinson

MrClean · Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 12:17 pm Post subject:

Goodbye.

pitchlevel · Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 12:27 pm Post subject:

hey jim welcome back. so are you playing 3rd onstage and the posthorn, or just the posthorn?

Atomlinson · Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 12:29 pm Post subject:

Jim

Nice to have you on board. Good luck with your new orchestra.

Andrew Tomlinson

MrClean · Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 2:43 pm Post subject:

Goodbye.

Mzony · Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 3:43 pm Post subject:

Ha,

I remember growing up and california, listening to the LA Phil every week. That is exactly how Stevens and Green worked out Mahler 3. Tom would play on stage and Don would play fourth and off stage.

PC · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:24 am Post subject:

Great topic!

My mileage stems from way back when I lived in Israel, so practices even there may have changed!

In the Israel Phil, 2nd trp always played 2nd and 3rd got to play 1st, as stated above. 4th got to play 1st offstage (such as in Mahler 2). I got to play assistent to 1st (bumper) and got hired as freelance especially for that (no audition, just being student of principal). I also got to play any other required part or offstage not covered by the orchestras 4 trpts.

In the Jerusalem Symphony freelancers did not get to assist but only play extra voices. There was a period in which they had 3 permanent trumpets and I got to play almost entire seasons as 4th, sometimes 3rd. When we did Mahler 3, I played 4th and the principal played offstage with the 3rd playing principal in that movement.

I don't recall ever seing a fullscale doubling of trumpet parts in those orchestras (quite common in German orchestras, certainly Berlin Phil and Vienna Phil). As stated above, this generally has less to do with power than with tone colour, I would suspect, as I have seen videos of Berlin playing Beethoven 7 both single and with double brass to the same effect.

I once heard that a lot of British principals had students bumping because of the low pay: the pros had to play so much in the studio and in other orchestras that they were burned by the time the evening concert was due!

Pierre

[ This Message was edited by: PC on 2003-09-19 05:29 ]