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mrsemman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 808 Location: West Brookfield, MA
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Jeff for your response. Currently I am repairing a Conn G/F USN bugle, quite possibly from WWI. While it sounds better than most, it still does not compare to the Kanstul G. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C Trumpet
Zeus Guarnerius Trumpet
Zeus Guarnerius Flugelhorn
Kanstul G Bugle
Jin Boa Bass Trumpet
Last edited by mrsemman on Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9389 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | Dale Proctor wrote: | Dale Proctor wrote: | I have a Kanstul Bb field trumpet, ... |
I know the difference. |
Dale,
Are you arguing with your own post? |
I will sometimes argue with myself when no one else will...
Actually, I was pointing out to a previous poster that I know the difference between a field trumpet and a bugle. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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hup_d_dup Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 290 Location: Tewksbury, NJ
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:51 am Post subject: |
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garrett901 wrote: | Thanks... I already have a few. My Avatar shows me playing my Kanstul Custom Class, three valve, "G" Soprano Bugle. |
Why is this instrument referred to as a bugle rather than as a G trumpet? |
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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3610 Location: New York
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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veery715 wrote: | To bright, or not too bright, I always say.
In the running for irrelevantest post of the day. |
there's actually a fifty buck reward for best zen koan of the day. find out who you have to see to collect... chuck |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:17 am Post subject: |
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No such thing as a Trumpet in the key of "G" Just Bugles. There was (is) a Bb Field Trumpet that "looks" just like a Bugle, but it's in the key of Bb, thus it's called a Field Trumpet. There are Ceremonial Bugles in the Key of Bb, but no Trumpets in the key of "G".
Key of Bb, C, D, Eb = Trumpets
Key of G (and F) = Bugle _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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Scooter Pirtle Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 143 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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hup_d_dup Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 290 Location: Tewksbury, NJ
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:41 am Post subject: |
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garrett901 wrote: |
Key of Bb, C, D, Eb = Trumpets
Key of G (and F) = Bugle |
Thanks, but you didn't answer my question. To re-phrase; what makes a three valve instrument in G a bugle rather than a trumpet? |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:44 am Post subject: |
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garrett901 wrote: | No such thing as a Trumpet in the key of "G" Just Bugles. There was (is) a Bb Field Trumpet that "looks" just like a Bugle, but it's in the key of Bb, thus it's called a Field Trumpet. There are Ceremonial Bugles in the Key of Bb, but no Trumpets in the key of "G".
Key of Bb, C, D, Eb = Trumpets
Key of G (and F) = Bugle |
The Schilke horns are in high F and G - as in higher than a Bb trumpet - while the bugles are in low G.
That said, prior to the Bb trumpet becoming the standard - most orchestral players used a low F trumpet. That's why many orchestral parts sections or parts written in F. I've never heard of a low G trumpet, however. I can't remember if trumpets came in low A or if it was just cornets.
So, trumpets come or came in the keys of (from low to high) F, Bb, C, D, Eb, E, F, G, A, Bb, and C.
Cornets come or came in A, Bb, C, and Eb.
I'll leave the difference between bugles and trumpets to someone who knows something about bugles, but I suspect it's a cylindrical vs. conical bore thing - with the bugles being significantly more conical. But, I don't really know much about bugles. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Scooter Pirtle Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 143 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm, so the piccolo soprano bugle is in the same register as the Schilke G trumpet. So, it must not be a bugle?
Point is, there isn't a difference between a three valve G bugle and a trumpet, save its key. Technically, we've used signal trumpets in North America since the late 19th Century. Most manufacturers have simply advertised them as bugles. So, if Kanstul markets its instruments as a "bugle," then they are a bugle.
Vincent Bach was probably correct in utilizing the term "signal trumpet" for the instrument that he instructed while in the Army and later produced for the Old Guard. _________________ Scooter Pirtle
Phoenix, AZ
Yamaha New York Bb Gen III
Yamaha Chicago C Gen III
www.middlehornleader.com |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9389 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Differences between field trunpets and bugles - top to bottom...
Kanstul Bb Field Trumpet
U.S. Regulation G Field Trumpet
British Army Bugle copy
Valved Bugle (flugelhorn)
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Scooter Pirtle Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 143 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Exactly! A picture worth a thousand words.
Thanks! _________________ Scooter Pirtle
Phoenix, AZ
Yamaha New York Bb Gen III
Yamaha Chicago C Gen III
www.middlehornleader.com |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:14 am Post subject: |
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I guess I'll be very clear, here.
Scooter Pirtle wrote: | Hmmm, so the piccolo soprano bugle is in the same register as the Schilke G trumpet. So, it must not be a bugle? |
Key is irrelevant whether an instrument is a trumpet or a bugle. Or a trumpet or cornet or flugel. It's just the key of the instrument.
Scooter Pirtle wrote: | Point is, there isn't a difference between a three valve G bugle and a trumpet, save its key. |
By that reasoning there isn't a difference between a Bb trumpet, Bb cornet, Bb flugelhorn, or a horn in Bb, or a bugle in Bb. So - no.
I'd rather leave it to the Bugle experts - but a bugle is conical bore. Very conical bore. Just look at it.
Cornets are also conical bore, as are flugelhorns (even more so), and horns (as in "french" horns).
Trumpets are cylindrical bore - in theory. In practice, they also have conical elements nowadays - thanks to the classic French Besson trumpet but it's generally less conical than even the cornet. It's mostly cylindrical with conical elements.
So, that's the difference on a basic level. A trumpet is a trumpet. A cornet is a cornet. A bugle is a bugle. Key doesn't matter. Valves are a mechanism for more notes - that's all. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Scooter Pirtle Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 143 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn, I agree key is irrelevant. My comment was intended to counter a previous poster (who I respect) who was making blanket statements utilizing the key of the instrument as a sole indicator of whether or not the instrument was (or was not) a bugle. This, I believe, is incorrect.
I'm also aware of the conical verus cylindrical argument. Perhaps you can simply "look" at an instrument and make the distinction. However, when I look at a pattern 1892 field trumpet or a modern soprano "bugle," they appear to be rather cylindrical to me.
I'll gladly and respectfully refrain from posting in this thread since you feel I don't fulfill an undisclosed definition of expert (no argument from me on this point). Kindly notify those who do possess this qualification so that they can provide the information that would benefit this thread. _________________ Scooter Pirtle
Phoenix, AZ
Yamaha New York Bb Gen III
Yamaha Chicago C Gen III
www.middlehornleader.com |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Scooter Pirtle wrote: | I'll gladly and respectfully refrain from posting in this thread since you feel I don't fulfill an undisclosed definition of expert (no argument from me on this point). |
I also don't fulfill the definition of bugle expert in any way shape or form. Sorry, I didn't realize your comments were written from a perspective designed provoke more discussion or point out fallacies.
Basically, we were making the same point, I see now.
Looking at your sig, I should have realized you know probably as much as I do.
I didn't intend my comments to be rude, only an attempt to inform. I apologize for any disrespect.
I agree that it's often difficult to see whether an instrument is conical or cylindrical. The British bugle in Dale's picture above does look a fairly conical to me, however. Basically, I simply remember from brass classes and textbooks in college that it's a conical instrument. That's all I got. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'll agree with everything stated and refer to my earlier point here:
Garrett901 Wrote:
Code: | Two reasons; First, tradition |
_________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Also, Bugles have formal separate names based on there voice;
High horns = Piccolo Soprano bugle, Soprano bugle
Middle Horns = Mellophone bugle, French Horn bugle, Flugelhorn bugle
Low horns = Contrabass bugle (includes the "Grand" Contrabass bugle) Euphonium bugle, Baritone bugle
Once again, mostly tradition. You wouldn't address a section of Coronets in an English Brass Ensemble as Trumpets, nor should you address a sections of Soprano bugles in a Drum and Bugle Corps as as a Trumpet section. However it is permissible to address the Bb Trumpet section in a modern DCI Corps as a Trumpet section, since, they are Trumpets.
Didn't know there were key of "G" Piccolo Trumpets... That's pretty cool. Learn something new every day !
I try not to use absolutes. Looks like I did in this thread and for that I apologize. Not what I meant to do... Sorry Folks. _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9389 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:51 am Post subject: |
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garrett901 wrote: | ...You wouldn't address a section of Coronets in an English Brass Ensemble as Trumpets,... |
That's cornets. A Coronet is an old Dodge. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes I hate spell check ! _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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hup_d_dup Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 290 Location: Tewksbury, NJ
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:20 am Post subject: |
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The original meaning of coronet is crown. You could play a cornet while wearing a coronet (perhaps while riding in a Coronet). |
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tapsbugler Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2003 Posts: 134 Location: Arlington National Cemetery
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