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dmh737 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 771 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:03 am Post subject: Jet Tone MF |
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Back in the late 80's early 90's I played on a Jet Tone MF trumpet mouthpiece. I can't tell you if it was a MF I, II or III. I don't know if they even had numbers back then. All I know is that it was a convex rim/cup/throat. It played great on my Benge 6XM (CG). I sold the horn and piece years ago. I'm looking for that MP again.
Where can I buy one of these?
Thanks,
Dave _________________ Trumpet - LA Benge 3X+
Mouthpiece - Callet VF DT 10 top
Ken Titmus KTRT6 Backbore
flat.io |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:42 am Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure it was the JetTone MF2 that was a smooth transition from the rim to the throat. The others had small but distinct cups before funneling into the throat. I played that exact piece in HS back in the late 70's with limited success but it completely jacked up my development. I still have the piece, that I'll never ever play again, but I'm loathe to part with it for sentimental reasons. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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dmh737 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 771 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:58 am Post subject: |
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I actually had alot of success with it. I acclimated to it and it worked great for me, even in the lower register. I understand your hoarding issues. If you get counseling and decide to part with it send me a PM.
I actually didn't know that Jet tone went out of business until recently. I was hoping someone knew of a company that still had stock or someone had one collecting dust.
It looks like I can buy the top from Kanstul. I'm searching for a BB now. _________________ Trumpet - LA Benge 3X+
Mouthpiece - Callet VF DT 10 top
Ken Titmus KTRT6 Backbore
flat.io |
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jiarby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2011 Posts: 1188
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Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:05 am Post subject: |
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I just sold mine on eBay a couple months ago... went for $70 or so. They come up there pretty often. Mine was just stamped "MF"
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md-jones Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2005 Posts: 298
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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:43 am Post subject: |
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yes, Jet Tone is long gone, but you have options.
they do come up on ebay, but those originals can get pricey.
there are several other brands that make clone versions, but not all of them advertise it.
if you have the money, there is the MF3 by Monette (not the MF2)
I have the Kanstul MF3, which is around $125
for the "secret" versions, ask Mark Curry, or Steve Patrick at Patrick mouthpieces.
Greg Black makes a version called the NY4 (or NY3, or something like that.) its on their website. |
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B. Scriver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002 Posts: 1204 Location: Toronto, Canada
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dmh737 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2004 Posts: 771 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, Brian. I'd have a hard time putting a $200 mouthpiece on a $100 trumpet. However I think that GR are the best out there. BK (before kids) I played a GR 65SZ on my Getzen Rennaissance 20S. What a combination!!!
I was just curious about the MF. I wonder if I could play on it now as well as I did back then.
Dave _________________ Trumpet - LA Benge 3X+
Mouthpiece - Callet VF DT 10 top
Ken Titmus KTRT6 Backbore
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GiveItOne Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 100
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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I'm pretty sure it was the JetTone MF2 that was a smooth transition from the rim to the throat. The others had small but distinct cups before funneling into the throat. |
I play a Jet-Tone MF 3 and MF. I have several of every version Jet-Tone has made including the reproductions (I have a set for me and both of my kids). I love these pieces. I've been playing the MF 3 since 1973.
They all have the same basic cup design (if you can call it a cup). The only differences are the width, depth and bore. Sorry, none of them (including the reproductions) have "small but distinct cups before funneling into the throat." They are all V cups all the way.
The MF (also called the personal) was the smallest at 14.5 mm (original literature listed it at 19/32"), shallow throat 19.
The MF 2 15.6 mm (original literature listed it at 20/32"), medium throat 24.
MF 3 16.5 mm (original literature listed it at 21/32"), deep throat 26.
The reproductions:
The MF 16.66 and very deep (this thing is a bathtub), throat 26.
MF Vintage at 15.37 mm, shallow, throat 19.
Disclaimer: As you will often find discussed about the original Ratzenberger Jet-Tones, they will vary somewhat. The tooling wasn't exacting.
Hope that this helps. _________________ '73 Custom Strad (that I play with a Jet Tone MF 3)
Weird ain't it....
'65 Conn Director
Yamaha Allegro
Last edited by GiveItOne on Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GiveItOne Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 100
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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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jiarby wrote: | I just sold mine on eBay a couple months ago... went for $70 or so. They come up there pretty often. Mine was just stamped "MF"
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This is an MF Personal. Notice the Jet-Tone logo is in italics and that the top of the two T's form a single line. Also the M and F are off line a bit. They were hand stamped. These are all indicators of an original Ratzenberger piece.
And yes, I got all of mine, except the MF 3 that I play, on eBay. They come up pretty often. I bought the MF 3 that I play new in 1973. _________________ '73 Custom Strad (that I play with a Jet Tone MF 3)
Weird ain't it....
'65 Conn Director
Yamaha Allegro
Last edited by GiveItOne on Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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GiveItOne wrote: | cheiden wrote: | I'm pretty sure it was the JetTone MF2 that was a smooth transition from the rim to the throat. The others had small but distinct cups before funneling into the throat. |
...They all have the same basic cup design (if you can call it a cup). The only differences are the width, depth and bore. Sorry, none of them (including the reproductions) have "small but distinct cups before funneling into the throat." They are all V cups all the way.... |
I'm pretty sure, at least with regard to what was available in the mid 70's.
Also, from Pop's website:
"The MF 1,2 & 3 mouthpieces are all measured by Jet-tone as .656" . Jet-tones are measured above where the bite should be. (There is no bite on the MF models.) Other companies measure at a different spot. Therefore J-T mpc tend to run smaller than stated. The MF3 is a deep v. There is a cup to it HOWEVER the MF 1 is a convex v and is rounded all the way from the rim to the throat. It would take a microscope to find THAT cup."
http://www.bbtrumpet.com/1-50/dfh21.html _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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GiveItOne Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 100
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: |
Also, from Pop's website:
"The MF 1,2 & 3 mouthpieces are all measured by Jet-tone as .656" . Jet-tones are measured above where the bite should be. (There is no bite on the MF models.) Other companies measure at a different spot. Therefore J-T mpc tend to run smaller than stated. The MF3 is a deep v. There is a cup to it HOWEVER the MF 1 is a convex v and is rounded all the way from the rim to the throat. It would take a microscope to find THAT cup."
http://www.bbtrumpet.com/1-50/dfh21.html |
This is the original Jet-Tone brochure. You will note that in the lower left corner it says "The Maynard Ferguson mouthpiece has a cup that is a convex V."
I own three MF 3's and have played this piece for 38 years. I also own four MF's and three MF 2's. POPS IS VERY WRONG! All of the original Ratzenberger MF's are rounded to the rim. Tell him to take his microscope in for repair. If you want a photo of all three versions side by side look at the next post.
As for Pops saying that they are all the same size. Jet-Tone didn't think so. Pops is wrong again!
_________________ '73 Custom Strad (that I play with a Jet Tone MF 3)
Weird ain't it....
'65 Conn Director
Yamaha Allegro
Last edited by GiveItOne on Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:15 am; edited 2 times in total |
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GiveItOne Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 100
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Here you go. MF 3 on the left, MF 2 in the middle and MF on the right. The cup shapes are identical. (sorry that the bight sun this morning made them look speckled)
_________________ '73 Custom Strad (that I play with a Jet Tone MF 3)
Weird ain't it....
'65 Conn Director
Yamaha Allegro |
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GiveItOne Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 100
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:47 am Post subject: |
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md-jones wrote: | yes, Jet Tone is long gone, but you have options.
they do come up on ebay, but those originals can get pricey.
there are several other brands that make clone versions, but not all of them advertise it.
if you have the money, there is the MF3 by Monette (not the MF2)
I have the Kanstul MF3, which is around $125
for the "secret" versions, ask Mark Curry, or Steve Patrick at Patrick mouthpieces.
Greg Black makes a version called the NY4 (or NY3, or something like that.) its on their website. |
The Monette MF3, the Kanstul MF3, the Holton MF3 and the Jet-Tone MF3 are all very different mouthpieces. _________________ '73 Custom Strad (that I play with a Jet Tone MF 3)
Weird ain't it....
'65 Conn Director
Yamaha Allegro |
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Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a chart from Kanstul that says you are incorrect about the rims.
There were custom MF pieces and MF pieces and Vintage MF pieces.
All were sized and shaped differently. Look at the Kanstul mouthpiece comparison graph.
http://kanstul.com/mpcJN/Compare/CompareJRFF1.html
Look at the custom MF and the custom MF 2 they have different rim contours, one has a straight shoulder slope into the cup from the rim and the other has NO shoulder it is a curve.
By definition the section where the straight drop from the rim into the piece would be called a cup even though it is NOT bowl shaped. The bowl shape is only 1 of the available cup shape.
Thanks for the info on the diameter/throat sizes. I will change that asap.
Have a great weekend. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
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GiveItOne Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 100
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Pops wrote: | Here is a chart from Kanstul that says you are incorrect about the rims.
There were custom MF pieces and MF pieces and Vintage MF pieces.
All were sized and shaped differently. Look at the Kanstul mouthpiece comparison graph.
http://kanstul.com/mpcJN/Compare/CompareJRFF1.html
Look at the custom MF and the custom MF 2 they have different rim contours, one has a straight shoulder slope into the cup from the rim and the other has NO shoulder it is a curve.
By definition the section where the straight drop from the rim into the piece would be called a cup even though it is NOT bowl shaped. The bowl shape is only 1 of the available cup shape.
Thanks for the info on the diameter/throat sizes. I will change that asap.
Have a great weekend. |
I started to say Sorry, the MFs on the Kanstul chart are Holtons not Jet Tones. That's the way it used to be. You've educated me on that. I see that they have added the Jet Tone MF and the Jet Tone Custom MF. However, it is horribly incorrect for the Jet Tone MF. The drawing they have is nothing like a Ratzenberger or reproduction MF. It is similar to the Holton. The piece in the photo I posted above (the one on the right) is an MF, not a Custom MF. You can see that there is no cup at all.
edit: I did this in a hurry and did not notice that Kanstul has the Custom Model MF 2A. There was a Custom Model MF 2 but I've never heard of a Custom Model MF 2A. Their drawing is nothing like a Custom Model MF 2. See my photo in a post below.
I have seen and played many, many Jet Tone MFs and the drawing on the Kanstul chart is not even close. What they have listed as a "Custom Model" MF is correct. The shape is correct for all of the MFs from Jet Tone with the exception of differences in size.
Jet Tone has never made a piece that even resembles the one that they have labeled Jet Tone MF.
Thanks for going back and forth on this with me. I really enjoy talking about these pieces. _________________ '73 Custom Strad (that I play with a Jet Tone MF 3)
Weird ain't it....
'65 Conn Director
Yamaha Allegro
Last edited by GiveItOne on Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:38 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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GiveItOne Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 100
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some hastily taken closeups of some of the MFs by Jet Tone.
Jet Tone MF (Early Ratzenberger)
Jet Tone Custom Model MF 3 (Ratzenberger)
Jet Tone MF reproduction
Jet Tone Custom Model MF 2 (Ratzenberger)
[img] [/img] _________________ '73 Custom Strad (that I play with a Jet Tone MF 3)
Weird ain't it....
'65 Conn Director
Yamaha Allegro |
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GiveItOne Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 100
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the Vintage MF (reproduction)
Sorry that I don't have a photo of a Custom Model MF, it lives in a safe deposit box along with my other ones. I only keep a few handy. The Custom MF and the MF (Ratzenbergers) are identical though.
Jiarby has a good closeup photo of one posted early in this thread. That covers them all. You can see that they are all rounded right to the rim. _________________ '73 Custom Strad (that I play with a Jet Tone MF 3)
Weird ain't it....
'65 Conn Director
Yamaha Allegro |
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deleted_user_fdb91a0 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Jet-Tone made an MF2A, as well as an MF-B. I know this because I've played on both. These were narrow with deep V-cups, but there was a distinct inner edge and rim. So yes, there were MF models made other than just the MF1, MF2, and MF3. The ones that the Boss himself played were the no-bite, V-cup models. I'm assuming Jet-Tone made the MF2A and the MF-B for those players who wanted the V-cup but couldn't handle the absence of a rim.
For what it's worth, my custom lead mouthpiece is almost identical to the Jet-Tone MF1, just narrower and roughly half as deep.
Here's the CNC scan of both my custom pieces. The "shallow" contour is the mouthpiece pictured above.
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GiveItOne Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 100
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Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:56 am Post subject: |
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drewwilkie86 wrote: | Jet-Tone made an MF2A, as well as an MF-B. I know this because I've played on both. These were narrow with deep V-cups, but there was a distinct inner edge and rim. So yes, there were MF models made other than just the MF1, MF2, and MF3. The ones that the Boss himself played were the no-bite, V-cup models. I'm assuming Jet-Tone made the MF2A and the MF-B for those players who wanted the V-cup but couldn't handle the absence of a rim.
For what it's worth, my custom lead mouthpiece is almost identical to the Jet-Tone MF1, just narrower and roughly half as deep.
Here's the CNC scan of both my custom pieces. The "shallow" contour is the mouthpiece pictured above.
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Then you are in agreement that Kanstul has the MF incorrect and they are correct for the MF3 (both should have no bite, round to the rim). Maybe they meant to say MFB where they said MF. Like I said above, I've never seen the MF 2A or the MF B.
I know that Ratzenberger made a lot of short runs, changes and not-so-consistent stuff along the way. I still love the stuff.
Thanks for the info.
That's a nice looking mpc that you have there. I'm not sure that I could go that shallow but it would be interesting to try. _________________ '73 Custom Strad (that I play with a Jet Tone MF 3)
Weird ain't it....
'65 Conn Director
Yamaha Allegro |
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deleted_user_fdb91a0 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Yeah the MF2A and the MF-B are more like flugel mouthpieces than anything else. With a rim and bite applied to the design, it's pretty deep. Once you remove the rim and undercut, then the mouthpiece gets small pretty quickly!
My custom lead mouthpiece is extremely small. Measuring in a typical spot, the inner diameter is around .560, which when using their numbering system, I believe would make it a Warburton 14ESV-W, without a bite or undercut of course.
You can always order a copy from Kanstul. They charged me $80 for entire project, and it arrived exactly as I had designed it. Very high quality, and excellent customer service. I don't collect any money for sales of that mouthpiece, I just take the opportunity to throw them business whenever possible because of the great experiences I've had with them. |
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